IR versus "Hello Elbow"

[AimHigh]

Excellent video, easy to understand, logical and straight-forward.
Thanks for posting.

 

[BoardMember]

Hmmmmm......I'd have to say that coach Phil and I are as far apart on this subject as the sun and moon..........

And In fact, I'd also venture an educated guess that that Coach Phil is actually still in the process of discovery and interpretation with regard to I/R.......And the fact that he states that "some of you might call this I/R" in his original video post on youtube, tells me he's been reading here.........GOOD FOR HIM!

However, IMO the actions he's suggesting for "elbow snap" should NOT be taught IMO...........

This folks.......Is NOT I/R.......It is not the beginning, or the cause of I/R........Infact.......It has nothing to do with I/R..........

It is elbow snap........Pure and simple.......Rapid straightening (snapping/extension) of the arm at the elbow joint (without a restraining/impact point)..........Believe me........This action is NOT recommended by me. Elbow injuries that result from RAPID (unrestrained) straightening (extension/snapping) at the elbow joint are common and can be dangerous.......If you don't believe me.......Ask your doctor, or any physical therapist..........Putting a "weight" such as a ball on the end just makes it worse IMO.......

IMO..........From viewing Coach Phil's demonstration, it's fairly obvious by the awkward nature of his demo pitches, that it's still fairly new to him.......But I will say good for him for seeking out and working toward teaching proper high level delivery mechanics..........

I'll guaranty you there is no "elbow snap" (forced unrestrained rapid extension) in the high level I/R delivery mechanics of delivering a softball to the target..........

Internal Rotation is a series of tightening rotations..........Full Arm/Shoulder rotation.......Internal Bicep (humeral rotation).......Internal Forearm rotation.......Internal Wrist rotation.......Internal finger articulation..........All coupled together in a kinematic sequence of events that exploits the kinetic chain..........

Remember the "Hanson Principle" people.........



Elbow Snap (unrestrained rapid extension) is the last thing I would teach my students.........And has nothing to do with creating an I/R POWERED delivery..........

Let me also add that Coach Phil's interpretation of "Hello Elbow" is SPOT ON............Trying to propel the ball by flexing the elbow AND wrist at release...........

 

[CoachFP]

If you look at the way this guy Phil demonstrates this idea, you immediately know that he has no clue what he is talking about. He is doing it far away from his body which cannot be replicated when the arm comes around in the pitching motion. He is a pure example of the people who have never pitched and who dream up new stuff to teach girls. That's where this dumb "hello elbow" stuff came from. Don't apologize to "Coach" Phil because he came up some crazy thing that makes no sense.

 

[BoardMember]

The guy pitching is just some dude who likes to pitch with a bat in his hand in case anyone around him has a "hello elbow" condition..........

And there is no "forced turn over" of the hand.......There is internal rotation of the entire mechanism, that results in a turn-over when no other spin is being represented/imparted........

With regard to Phil's "wrist snap" you like so much........ARE YOU BLIND??

How can his wrist be "snapping" when it stays palm forward to palm up from prior to release all the way to extension (then has a little fake turn in at the end).......Simple.......It CAN'T.........

It doesn't even turn inward (I/R) AT ALL when compared to the high level examples I posted in that same thread.........

Did you even watch this clip of him??? And turning the hand over has nothing to do with it Screw.......Just watch what his arm/hand are doing WHILE mine is internally rotating toward my belt buckle through release..........His gets his hand orientated toward the target and then PUSHES THE BALL STRAIGHT OUT with ZERO I/R..........Hell, he might as well "hello elbow" the ball to the target..........He has no clue what he's trying to do IMO..........

I am THROWING THE BALL toward the target.......Not pushing it........

Hey I've got an idea Screwball.......Post a video of you throwing a pitch.......Just a simple fastball will do........Then we can make a determination as to what you do vs. what you think you do........And also what you know vs. what you think you know about I/R.......

That will clear up a lot..........

 

[Phil]

First, let me agree with Boardmember, that our primary responsibility as coaches is injury prevention. In more than 16 years of coaching and teaching we have never had a pitching related injury including one to any of our students' elbows. We do not use the term "elbow snap" in instruction to out students. I wish to be very clear on that point. In answering a specific question that was posed to us about "elbow snap," utilizing that term has apparently been taken out of context, creating some confusion. The delivery of the pitch requires continuous relaxed acceleration down the backside of the arm circle and forward through the "throw zone" with "forearm fire," which, yes, will absolutely result in natural-- not forced-- internal rotation of the forearm. Boardmembers' videos clearly demonstrate the presence of elbow extension and flexion as well as wrist flexion at the start of release. The teaching of the circle and delivery is a complex affair which cannot be covered in a 10 minute video on one specific aspect of it...eg with gravity instead of against it. The section of my video that Boardmember has isolated is completely out of context and, if allowed to continue would clearly show relaxed, natural elbow extension as well as internal rotation of the forearm. I thank Boardmember for his thoughtful feedback and analysis.

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

BM
You are one grumpy person.

His description of wrist snap was not in the video. It was in a post in answer to my question. And my comment was nothing to do with what Phil was doing either, because I know he was not really pitching the ball and that makes the video different than a real pitch.

You make such a dogma out of this it is difficult to have a conversation. I ask again, were you a pitcher? I just don't see isolating bits of the motion and analyzing them so much and finding video more real than real life. Pitchers don't pitch with their brains that full of anything but getting results.

I also have seen pitching evolve and understand that there are other ways that might inform me, rather than saying 'our way is the only way.' I say again I pitch and my hand only goes sideways, and it worked for and still works for me (I used to throw really hard). I still think rolling it over is a style.

And all of this as an obsession to curing the hello elbow some false construct made up by some dad that you may see in one out 20 , 10 year olds who were taught by another dad.

IMO, the reason Boardmember is so passionate about the whole concept of Internal Rotation is that numerous pitching coaches, rec league coaches, and dad's/mom's continue to teach this "hello elbow" nonsense which is counter productive to how every good, great, and elite pitchers actually pitch.

From a personal perspective and before I read BM's original post on IR, I used to pay good money for several years to a pitching instructor who taught my DD to "push the ball" down the windmill circle from 12 o'clock thru release and to finish in a "hello elbow" or "strong man" arm position. What I didn't realize at the time was that these flawed mechanics were killing the ability of the arm and wrist to generate good arm whip.

I have watched 100's of pitching videos from this website, youtube etc. and I have yet to see any elite pitchers who actually pitch using 'hello elbow" mechanics. I can assure you that most pitching coaches and parents (even in SoCal) how zero clue as to what the arm and wrist should be doing during the arm circle to generate maximum spin and velocity to the pitch. BM and Bill Hillhouse are only a few of the pitching instructors who actually understand it and are knowledgable enough to teach proper mechanics. Internal Rotation is not a dogma or a style of pitching. It's plain as day by just watching the Finch, Ueno, and Amanda pitching videos in slo- motion that you need proper mechanics to maximize good internal rotation. It's the most critical concept to understand in windmill pitching. Screwball, you need to revist the Hanson Principle which states "verify what anyone tells you about hitting or pitching by watching and analyzing the slo-motion video of the best players in the game". Perfect examples are Stacey Nelson and Jennie Finch who teach "hello elbow" mechanics in their instructional videos but if you watch them pitch in a real softball game, they don't actually pitch using those flawed mechanics. Clearly they don't practice what they preach and don't really fully understand arm whip. Just because you are a great athlete doesn't mean you know how to teach others.

God bless BM and his posts about IR.

 

[BoardMember]

Over 138,000 people have learned the "K" position from this video Screwball........Hand ON TOP of the ball as soon as it passes the top of the circle..........Watch this young lady PUSH THE HELL outta the ball.......ZERO I/R........In fact, she fighting against I/R.....Making sure there IS NO I/R in her motion..........She's been taught NOT TO ALLOW I/R........Along with the other 138,000 people who've watched this clip.........



There are literally 1000's of training videos out there just like this one Screwball........1000's...........This is what makes me GRUMPY AS HELL when people tell me "you don't have to worry....EVERYONE I/R's".........BS!

Then here comes "Coach Phil"........Seems like a nice enough old dude........Probably a really good coach..........And he's gonna show the world how I/R works.....3 years after I wrote my piece here........And yet as he demonstrates it........IT NEVER HAPPENS "naturally"! He tells you to "snap" that arm down behind the release and I/R will happen "naturally"........THEN IT DOESN'T happen in his OWN demo naturally...........And you bought it........Hook.......Line........And sinker.......Common Screwball........

And you want to know where my passion comes from? You want to preach to me about how "natural" the motion is?......How it's a "non-teach".......And you think I should "warm up" to the idea that it's a "non-teach"???

I'm going to HAVE TO ASSUME that this is EXACTLY what you teach..........Until you show me that I/R is "natural" in your motion..........

Cause it sure IS NOT "natural" in coach Phils.........Who also claims "it just happens naturally"........Yet it NEVER HAPPENS "natually" in his demonstration delivery.........It kills me when people say it happens "naturally" and then demo how it DOESN'T happen naturally..........

HOW MANY PEOPLE have to tell you that they had to leave their coaches because it does NOT happen "naturally" before you'll realize how wrong you are.........

Show me a video of your "natural I/R"...........Then show me a video of one of your students "natural I/R".......

Is that too much to ask?...........

 

[BoardMember]

This young ladies velocity was in the high 60's from HS thru College..........Looks pretty "natural" wouldn't you say Screwball?.........

She was "trained" to be "natural"..........A "learned" motor skill........Internal Rotation.........

With drills like this..........



Do you think Coach Phil really "feels" this I/R action?

 

[jbooth]

Hmmmmm......I'd have to say that coach Phil and I are as far apart on this subject as the sun and moon..........

And In fact, I'd also venture an educated guess that that Coach Phil is actually still in the process of discovery and interpretation with regard to I/R.......And the fact that he states that "some of you might call this I/R" in his original video post on youtube, tells me he's been reading here.........GOOD FOR HIM!

However, IMO the actions he's suggesting for "elbow snap" should NOT be taught IMO...........

This folks.......Is NOT I/R.......It is not the beginning, or the cause of I/R........Infact.......It has nothing to do with I/R..........

I'll guarantee you there is no "elbow snap" (forced unrestrained rapid extension) in the high level I/R delivery mechanics of delivering a softball to the target..........

Internal Rotation is a series of tightening rotations..........Full Arm/Shoulder rotation.......Internal Bicep (humeral rotation).......Internal Forearm rotation.......Internal Wrist rotation.......Internal finger articulation..........All coupled together in a kinematic sequence of events that exploits the kinetic chain..........

Remember the "Hanson Principle" people.........



Elbow Snap (unrestrained rapid extension) is the last thing I would teach my students.........And has nothing to do with creating an I/R POWERED delivery..........

Let me also add that Coach Phil's interpretation of "Hello Elbow" is SPOT ON............Trying to propel the ball by flexing the elbow AND wrist at release...........

He is a member of this board. His user name is "Phil" he posted above. Why don't you respond to him directly. And be nice John.

 

[jbooth]

BM
You are one grumpy person.

His description of wrist snap was not in the video. It was in a post in answer to my question. And my comment was nothing to do with what Phil was doing either, because I know he was not really pitching the ball and that makes the video different than a real pitch.

You make such a dogma out of this it is difficult to have a conversation. I ask again, were you a pitcher? I just don't see isolating bits of the motion and analyzing them so much and finding video more real than real life. Pitchers don't pitch with their brains that full of anything but getting results.

I also have seen pitching evolve and understand that there are other ways that might inform me, rather than saying 'our way is the only way.' I say again I pitch and my hand only goes sideways, and it worked for and still works for me (I used to throw really hard). I still think rolling it over is a style.

And all of this as an obsession to curing the hello elbow some false construct made up by some dad that you may see in one out 20 , 10 year olds who were taught by another dad.

I can tell you that Boardmember pitched. He and I are from the same area and when we were young, 30+ years ago, we played in the same league. Not in the same division and I never batted against him, but I saw him pitch. He was pretty darn good.

And yeah, we both get grumpy sometimes. It's usually from frustration when people make arguments not supported by any facts.