IR versus "Hello Elbow"

[jbooth]

Wrist snap will take place naturally as part of relaxed acceleration of the hand and forearm through the "throw zone" (what we call forearm fire). The snapping of the wrist is not limited to one direction, such as an upside-down "bye bye" wave. The internal rotation of the forearm during delivery, if the forearm is relaxed, will result in a natural whip of the wrist similar to the tip of snapped towel. The wrist will snap slightly differently depending on what type of pitch you are throwing. For those of you who requested the link to the video being discussed here it is Video: Windmill Pitching Release Mechanics

My expertise is in hitting. I'm trying to learn fastpitch pitching so I find the discussion between you, Screwball, Boardmember and others informative.

I have a pretty good knowledge of anatomy and kinesiology, so I have a bit of a quibble with something you said in the video.

You said, paraphrasing; that the shoulder disengages after reaching the top and that mostly gravity is all that is left. That is not true. There are at least 5 muscles that are activated and that pull the arm down from the top, and through release.

The latisimus dorsi, the pectoralis, the teres major, the coracobrachialis and to a small extent; the biceps. They are all involved in pulling the hand down and into internal rotation.

Now, if someone teaches a locked straight arm that swings around with no IR and you simply windmill your arm around, in that case, those muscles don't do much. The momentum created by the deltoid bringing the arm up, and gravity pulling it down, would be fairly accurate. But, even in that motion, the lat and pecs are somewhat involved. The pecs and teres less so when you hold that bone position.

What Boardmember is teaching, is how to recruit and involve muscles that will accelerate the hand and not just rely on gravity and/or momentum from the start of the arm circle. I realize that you are saying that also, but I think you're missing a lot of the kinesiology involved in the IR movement.

You are promoting wrist snap done by the muscles that flex the wrist. Boardmember is promoting the use of the pronator muscles to twist the hand before/as it flexes. You aren't doing that in your demo.

Specifically the pronator teres and the pronator quadratis. You don't appear to be using those as much as you are using the flexors. As you stated, your hand is naturally pronating and then you snap or flex. BM is saying to put more emphasis on actively pronating the wrist and let the snap be natural.

It's the subtle difference between "snapping" and "throwing". BM is trying to describe how to throw; not just snap by extending the elbow and flexing the wrist. BM is saying IR the upper arm and pronate the forearm, which is more of a throw than gravity followed by a snap.

At least that is how I see it at this point from what has been shown by both of you. I could be wrong.

 

[lhowser]

Release takes place in a "zone," which I find enables the athlete to conceptualize continuous acceleration. Just as acceleration and extension are crucial after contact with a pitched ball in hitting, so are acceleration and extension crucial in the delivery of a pitch for maximum speed and command. Yes, the ball has left your hand, and yes, from 12 o'clock through the release is the most important component of the arm delivery, but knowing that the pitch does not end at the point that the ball leaves your hand is equally important.

I've always found this clip interesting in that it shows what ISN'T necessary in the delivery of a good pitch. Angela Tincher throws a variety of pitches with this finish. Has plenty of MPH and IR

 

[CoachFP]

Len, as you can see, Tincher is explosive off the mound. Little wasted effort. She does not "rise" up off the mound but drives through the pitch getting linear speed. She steps directly on the power line (not to the left) and her landing foot is perfect. She was one of the best.

 

[David Carter]

I am not a pitcher or instructor but I find the discussion fascinating and looking at online video even more so.

My biggest take away is videos don't lie. There is one 9 min or so video clip of Jennie Finch doing a clinic that is almost comical, you can hear the guy talking about following through and see her doing the whole "hello elbow" thing while warming up, then as soon as she starts throwing real pitches the "hello elbow" is gone.

Best thing to do is watch slow motion video of quality pitchers and just believe what your eyes are telling you.

 

[BoardMember]

Keira won the WCWS back in 03' for UCLA with this motion.........Tossing a 9 inning no no........

But there was no mistaking where the magic came from........

 

[BoardMember]

Best thing to do is watch slow motion video of quality pitchers and just believe what your eyes are telling you.

IE........The "Hanson Principle"..........

Very Good Dave........

 

[Jillsdad]

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BM - these two motions look pretty much identical to me and my untrained, novice eyes. Can you explain the difference?

 

[starsnuffer]

The hanson principle tells you to watch the best of the best, and do what they do. Not to watch old men who've never pitched competitively . Do your eyes a favor and watch the videos of the pitchers instead.

-W

 

[jbooth]

BM - these two motions look pretty much identical to me and my untrained, novice eyes. Can you explain the difference?

They do look very similar, but IMO, Phil is doing what he says he does, he is focusing on extending/snapping his elbow straight, and snapping his wrist, and any internal rotation is simply a byproduct of turning his palm in the direction of the target.

OTOH, BoardMember is focusing on internally rotating his upper arm and pronating his forearm, and the elbow extension/snap is a byproduct, not a forced snap.

That's my opinion, now I'd like to hear what each of them have to say.

 

[jbooth]

The hanson principle tells you to watch the best of the best, and do what they do. Not to watch old men who've never pitched competitively . Do your eyes a favor and watch the videos of the pitchers instead.

-W

I don't know about Phil, but BoardMember pitched competitively at a pretty high level for quite a few years.

And, I do use the Hansen principle, and I see the top college women doing what BoardMember says. That's my opinion.