Internal Rotation Definition?

[Rocketech1]

The problem is that this definition makes IR everything, and therefore nothing.

WTF? Why do you think BM preaches palm to the sky at 9:00 (when the hand is behind the pitcher)? Because you want to give the upper arm, forearm, and wrist maximum internal rotation as the hand comes down the circle from 9:00 to 6:00 release. The arm is rotating 180 degrees from 9:00 to 3:00. It's not "nothing" it's everything if you want to generate maximum velocity and spin!

Another reason why a flip change is so much slower than the fastball, because internal rotation is essentially complete by 9:00 and has just killed any arm whip, and yes I/R.

I think you need to reread BMs internal Rotation thread and do the drill where you hold your arm out in front of your body and rotate the palm towards the sky and then rotate the hand so palm is facing the ground and and then back to the sky again as fast as you can and you will see the hand blur. He argues this is the fastest part of the human body and demonstrates why I/R is the key component for generating speed during the pitch.

No wonder you have been downplaying I/R so much....

 

[cuzmail]

They are out there. Some care and are willing to listen.

True. The old saying they don't know what they don't know applies here. In fact, we were all in the not knowing what we don't know boat at one point. For me I had no clue until the IR posts on this site.

The problem comes once they have been educated on what they don't know and they continue to ignore or advocate against it.

 

[BoardMember]

Ok guys.........This has turned into a pretty good thread..........Unfortunately........This isn't about the "definition of I/R"........There is only ONE definition of I/R........The thread has been changed by Ray to "what it the definition of whip".........Which is fine, because the TRUE definition of "whip" perfectly aligns itself with the bio-mechanical physics of I/R..........

First of all (Ray), the "common" definition of whip.....ESPECIALLY in throwing, has nothing to do with a "Flexion to Extenion" move in the arm.........So let's get our facts straight........

"Whip".......As a matter of PURE PHYSICS........Can be defined as segmented deceleration of a proximal part leading to acceleration of the distal part of that system.......Which by design as a matter of physics.......MUST INCLUDE A BEND in the system.........Think of the physics of a bull whip..........

The tip "cracks" because of kinetic transfer through deceleration of the part(s) "closest to the handle" (proximal) which, because of the BEND or curve in the system, accelerates the the tip to a high rate of speed BECAUSE it's the smallest part of the system experiencing the MOST amount of acceleration............

So to Ray's point that "whip can occur with a straight arm".........No......It cannot..........Unless there is a bend or corner in the system that allow the PHYSICS behind "whipping" to occur.........It is ONLY "angular momentum/velocity".........Which, without being acted upon by an outside force........WILL NOT ACCELERATE past it's initial velocity throughout its circle.......

So the ONLY THING that can occur with a straight arm is angular momentum, which by nature of physics, does not accelerate at any point, faster then it's initial velocity.........Unless you cause an action in the system that adds force........

THINK OF A ROCK ON A ROPE..........There is no WHIP in that system that causes sudden acceleration of the rock at the end of the rope.........Firstly because there IS NO BEND in the system that would create deceleration of a proximal part, transferring into acceleration of the distal part (the rock).............

Secondly.........Flexsion to Extension actually WIDENS the radius of the circle vs. narrowing it........Causing a deceleration of the circle.......It basically reduces the centripetal (pulling inward) force, which is required to maintain constant angular velocity.......

That's why you do not see our highly revered PC EXTENDING the bend to straight in his "whipping action"........And in fact, his arm is TRYING NOT TO EXTEND/STRAIGHTEN in order to cause the MOST transfer of kinetic energy to the most distal part of the system..........

IMO, we cannot have a accurate discussion about HOW I/R relates to whip, when "commonly thought of terms" are stated as fact.........That's how the whole "bowling" action began to be taught in the first place............

More later........I have to go to work!

EDIT: You guys may want to have a conversation about how angular momentum is ACCELERATED in a system WITHOUT bend..........Because there is a reason it can happen........

Think of what you'd have to do in order to cause an acceleration of the rock on the end of the rope........You'll see it has nothing to do with whip.........It has everything to do with INCREASING the amount of Centripetal force "pulling in" on the system.........

We've discussed overlap and the corner over the top.........When the shoulder traveling forward via leg drive and or shoulder rotation toward the catcher, and the arm is traveling backwards over the top of the circle........Which is INCREASING the centripetal force on the system for a brief moment in time........

So it IS being accelerated as overlap occurs.........But that moment is brief........I believe "old school" teachers view THAT as creating the "whip" that Ray refers to as a commonly accepted term.........

But that is not whip in it's purest form.......It is simply angular acceleration.......It is CALLED whip because there IS some acceleration that occurs in that moment............And pure whip also involves acceleration........But for different reasons.........

Bottom line is.......I think people think of "whip" as anything that accelerates during it's system life........No matter how/what makes it happen.........

 

[Rocketech1]

Sluggers, What you describe in your daughter is what I consider an IR-style pitcher regardless of how she finished.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't call pitchers who use good internal rotation mechanics "I/R-style" pitchers because its misleading. Hillhouse talks about some pitching mechanics as being stylistic vs absolutes. Starting your pitch with the ball hand and glove over your head is "stylistic". Using good internal rotation pitching mechanics is an "absolute" and all elite pitchers use these mechanics.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

WTF? Why do you think BM preaches palm to the sky at 9:00 (when the hand is behind the pitcher)? Because you want to give the upper arm, forearm, and wrist maximum internal rotation as the hand comes down the circle from 9:00 to 6:00 release. The arm is rotating 180 degrees from 9:00 to 3:00. It's not "nothing" it's everything if you want to generate maximum velocity and spin!

Another reason why a flip change is so much slower than the fastball, because internal rotation is essentially complete by 9:00 and has just killed any arm whip, and yes I/R.

I think you need to reread BMs internal Rotation thread and do the drill where you hold your arm out in front of your body and rotate the palm towards the sky and then rotate the hand so palm is facing the ground and and then back to the sky again as fast as you can and you will see the hand blur. He argues this is the fastest part of the human body and demonstrates why I/R is the key component for generating speed during the pitch.

No wonder you have been downplaying I/R so much....

IMO it would help if the descriptions were broken down to terms specific to the limb being rotated ...... for example External Rotation and Internal Rotation for the upper arm, and Pronation and Supination for the lower arm (forearm).

 

[Doug Romrell]

Gotta love clips like this one!

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Ok guys.........This has turned into a pretty good thread..........Unfortunately........This isn't about the "definition of I/R"........There is only ONE definition of I/R........The thread has been changed by Ray to "what it the definition of whip".........Which is fine, because the TRUE definition of "whip" perfectly aligns itself with the bio-mechanical physics of I/R..........

First of all (Ray), the "common" definition of whip.....ESPECIALLY in throwing, has nothing to do with a "Flexion to Extenion" move in the arm.........So let's get our facts straight........

"Whip".......As a matter of PURE PHYSICS........Can be defined as segmented deceleration of a proximal part leading to acceleration of the distal part of that system.......Which by design as a matter of physics.......MUST INCLUDE A BEND in the system.........Think of the physics of a bull whip..........

The tip "cracks" because of kinetic transfer through deceleration of the part(s) "closest to the handle" (proximal) which, because of the BEND or curve in the system, accelerates the the tip to a high rate of speed BECAUSE it's the smallest part of the system experiencing the MOST amount of acceleration............

So to Ray's point that "whip can occur with a straight arm".........No......It cannot..........Unless there is a bend or corner in the system that allow the PHYSICS behind "whipping" to occur.........It is ONLY "angular momentum/velocity".........Which, without being acted upon by an outside force........WILL NOT ACCELERATE past it's initial velocity throughout its circle.......

So the ONLY THING that can occur with a straight arm is angular momentum, which by nature of physics, does not accelerate at any point, faster then it's initial velocity.........Unless you cause an action in the system that adds force........

THINK OF A ROCK ON A ROPE..........There is no WHIP in that system that causes sudden acceleration of the rock at the end of the rope.........Firstly because there IS NO BEND in the system that would create deceleration of a proximal part, transferring into acceleration of the distal part (the rock).............

Secondly.........Flexsion to Extension actually WIDENS the radius of the circle vs. narrowing it........Causing a deceleration of the circle.......It basically reduces the centripetal (pulling inward) force, which is required to maintain constant angular velocity.......

That's why you do not see our highly revered PC EXTENDING the bend to straight in his "whipping action"........And in fact, his arm is TRYING NOT TO EXTEND/STRAIGHTEN in order to cause the MOST transfer of kinetic energy to the most distal part of the system..........

IMO, we cannot have a accurate discussion about HOW I/R relates to whip, when "commonly thought of terms" are stated as fact.........That's how the whole "bowling" action began to be taught in the first place............

More later........I have to go to work!

EDIT: You guys may want to have a conversation about how angular momentum is ACCELERATED in a system WITHOUT bend..........Because there is a reason it can happen........

Think of what you'd have to do in order to cause an acceleration of the rock on the end of the rope........You'll see it has nothing to do with whip.........It has everything to do with INCREASING the amount of Centripetal force "pulling in" on the system.........

We've discussed overlap and the corner over the top.........When the shoulder traveling forward via leg drive and or shoulder rotation toward the catcher, and the arm is traveling backwards over the top of the circle........Which is INCREASING the centripetal force on the system for a brief moment in time........

So it IS being accelerated as overlap occurs.........But that moment is brief........I believe "old school" teachers view THAT as creating the "whip" that Ray refers to as a commonly accepted term.........

But that is not whip in it's purest form.......It is simply angular acceleration.......It is CALLED whip because there IS some acceleration that occurs in that moment............And pure whip also involves acceleration........But for different reasons.........

Bottom line is.......I think people think of "whip" as anything that accelerates during it's system life........No matter how/what makes it happen.........

BM .... some excellent points made here that has the potential to evolve.

Quick question ..... based on your description, would you agree that the FP windmill pitching motion is NOT the same as an overhand throwing motion turned upside down?

 

[BoardMember]

BM .... some excellent points made here that has the potential to evolve.

Quick question ..... based on your description, would you agree that the FP windmill pitching motion is NOT the same as an overhand throwing motion turned upside down?

No throwing underhand is not the same as throwing overhand upside down.........What do you think?..........ROFL!

The whipping loop created in the overhand throw with a completely different set of bio-mechanics........

The only thing they have in common is that the ball is thrown in a direction toward a target........

But then I also don't at all agree with the very first drill a beginning fastpitch student should be taught is the "California Walk-Through"........Talk about the cart before the horse..........

But hey, to each his own.............

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

LOL BM.

Exactly .... the overhand throw is quite different.

When I see a demonstration like we see below (forearm fire) I wonder if someone took Bill's notion, of the FP windmill motion being an overhand throwing motion turned upside down, and went too far with it.

 

[BoardMember]

That's actually Phil's plagiarized version of my I/R thread, but coming from someone who has no clue what it actually feels like to throw a ball underhand properly..........It's actually an "ABSTRACT" version of being loose and using I/R that his mind can see, but his body can't "construct"..........

To Bill's (or anyone's actually) notion that throwing underhand is like throwing overhand but upside down, I think it's just an easy way to convey to young people that the throwing motion, whether overhand or underhand, includes flex in the elbow, some "looseness" in the joints, and a step/stop/release synchronized action to propel the ball........And is not meant to be a literal statement........