Internal Rotation Definition?

[Doug Romrell]

Unfortunately, you'd still have the vast majority of pitching coaches saying "That's wrong"...

And that is what makes them FOOLS!

 

[Ken B]

They are out there. Some care and are willing to listen.

I think a lot of problem is that the majority of the info out there is misinfo, which perpetuates more misinfo. How often do you see coaches having girls throwing before warming up? How often do you see coaches using static stretches before any other activity? The knowledge is out there, but it takes time for longheld beliefs to change. Meanwhile, pass on what you can to those who are willing to listen and hope the rest will be ready someday.

 

[Doug Romrell]

Further, of course most coaches "care" about their players, but "caring" isn't sufficient. Finding out what the elite pitchers of the world actually do when they pitch and working to get the pitchers working on those mechanics should be right there with "caring" in terms of importance.

 

[Doug Romrell]

How often do you see coaches having girls throwing before warming up? How often do you see coaches using static stretches before any other activity?

How many coaches allow pitchers to warm up properly/sufficiently anyway?

It's my understanding that it is better to stretch slightly warmed up muscles than it is to stretch un-warmed-up muscles.

 

[JJsqueeze]

All the info on pitching instruction is out there and easily available. it just takes a coach or parent trying the drills they come across to separate the good stuff. If they can't or won't take a road test of a drill to see if it delivers as advertised then they all get what they deserve. ONE pitch using a bowling/HE/wrist flip vs one using an I/R whip is enough to tell anyone with a brain which is right and which is wrong. I love the advantage and have no sympathy for those who have not found the "secret" yet. I welcome them when they have their "come to Jesus" pitching epiphany, but I am not knocking on any doors and handing out pamphlets.

 

[sluggers]

Again, I agree completely that a pitcher should use IR in pitching.

The question came up was how a pitcher could pitch "well" without IR. I thought it was pretty simple...the kid didn't use IR. I.e., the upper arm and the forearm didn't rotate. A pitcher can achieve probably 80% to 90% of her top speed without IR. (Yes, 10% to 20% missing is a significant drop in speed.)

Somehow, BM's simple straightforward definition of IR has been broadened to include the whip and the "stretch". Conceptually, it doesn't make sense to say "IR includes the whip", mainly because the whip can function OK without IR.

ONE pitch using a bowling/HE/wrist flip vs one using an I/R whip is enough to tell anyone with a brain which is right and which is wrong.

This is a perfect example of the confusion. A pitcher "pushing the ball" around the circle rather than pulling the ball around the circle has nothing to do with IR. It is possible to push the ball around the circled and use IR. It is possible to pull the ball around the circle, have a whip, and not use IR.

 

[JJsqueeze]

Conceptually, it doesn't make sense to say "IR includes the whip", mainly because the whip can function OK without IR.

Very true. RLG seems to teach this type of delivery (whip w/o I/R) and seems to produce some good pitchers, I personally think that once you have some bent elbow in the mix for the whip though, that some I/R is going to creep in.

 

[Rocketech1]

The question came up was how a pitcher could pitch "well" without IR. I thought it was pretty simple...the kid didn't use IR. I.e., the upper arm and the forearm didn't rotate. A pitcher can achieve probably 80% to 90% of her top speed without IR. (Yes, 10% to 20% missing is a significant drop in speed.)

Somehow, BM's simple straightforward definition of IR has been broadened to include the whip and the "stretch". Conceptually, it doesn't make sense to say "IR includes the whip", mainly because the whip can function OK without IR.



This is a perfect example of the confusion. A pitcher "pushing the ball" around the circle rather than pulling the ball around the circle has nothing to do with IR. It is possible to push the ball around the circled and use IR. It is possible to pull the ball around the circle, have a whip, and not use IR.

I'm glad you responded because this is where many are confused when it comes to I/R and arm whip. In fact, I disagree with you that one can pitch with arm whip WITHOUT using some internal rotation. Internal rotation happens at the shoulder complex, the upper arm, forearm, and wrist and unless the pitcher is 100% trying to push the ball down the circle and finish straight up to the throwing shoulder (hello elbow finish) they will be using some internal rotation mechanics during the pitch. There is just no way a pitcher using these absolute push the ball down the circle mechanics can achieve 80 - 90% of the top speed had she actually led with the elbow, with a palm to the sky at 9:00, and rotated the shoulder, upper arm, lower arm , and wrist into the release. The percentage is a lot less than this.

So my whole point is that unless you are 100% pushing the ball down the circle with hello elbow finish, you are using some I/R and the goal is to adjust and optimize the mechanics to get more internal rotation from 9:00 into and through release.

At least that is the way I see I/R as important to generating maximum arm whip for velocity and spin.

 

[Doug Romrell]

Sluggers said, “Conceptually, it doesn't make sense to say ‘IR includes the whip,’ mainly because the whip can function OK without IR.”

I take issue with this. Of course IR includes arm-whip. It’s just that arm-whip is not exclusive to IR.

I would argue that a much greater arm whip is possible with IR than is possible without it. I question what “okay” arm-whip without IR is. I’d say it is much less arm whip. Therefore, I would argue that given IR greatly intensifies arm-whip action when compared to non-IR arm-whip, while arm-whip may not be exclusive to the IR method of pitching, it is greatly intensified by the IR style.

 

[JJsqueeze]

Sluggers said, “Conceptually, it doesn't make sense to say ‘IR includes the whip,’ mainly because the whip can function OK without IR.”

I take issue with this. Of course IR includes arm-whip. It’s just that arm-whip is not exclusive to IR.

I would argue that a much greater arm whip is possible with IR than is possible without it. I question what “okay” arm-whip without IR is. I’d say it is much less arm whip. Therefore, I would argue that given IR greatly intensifies arm-whip action when compared to non-IR arm-whip, while arm-whip may not be exclusive to the IR method of pitching, it is greatly intensified by the IR style.

I disagree with this. you can have a straight arm and still have it internally rotating. I/R and whip are really two different things. One is the arm rotating towards the body, the other is a two segment, compound pendulum. Together they are awesome and is what the best do, apart either is good and if neither is present then you should just concentrate on hitting.