Internal Rotation Definition?

[Doug Romrell]

Sluggers said, “Conceptually, it doesn't make sense to say ‘IR includes the whip,’ mainly because the whip can function OK without IR.”

I take issue with this. Of course IR includes arm-whip. It’s just that arm-whip is not exclusive to IR.

I would argue that a much greater arm whip is possible with IR than is possible without it. I question what “okay” arm-whip without IR is. I’d say it is much less arm whip. Therefore, I would argue that given IR greatly intensifies arm-whip action when compared to non-IR arm-whip, while arm-whip may not be exclusive to the IR method of pitching, it is greatly intensified by the IR style.

I disagree with this. you can have a straight arm and still have it internally rotating. I/R and whip are really two different things. One is the arm rotating towards the body, the other is a two segment, compound pendulum. Together they are awesome and is what the best do, apart either is good and if neither is present then you should just concentrate on hitting.

I didn't say you couldn't get IR with a straight arm.
I didn't say IR and arm-whip are the same thing.
I argue that the IR style intensifies the arm-whip, and I assume the IR style of pitching generally includes an arm that is not straight/stiff.

Show me a clip of Boardmember teaching about IR where he's using/advocating a straight/stiff arm.

I firmly believe the IR style generates a much greater arm-whip than the HE style.

Also, I see the whip action as being a bit more than simply using my bicep to bend my arm at the elbow.

 

[sluggers]

(Let me start by saying I appreciate the discussion about this. I respect Doug, JJ, Rocket, and BM.)

This is in response to JJ:

First, there is the problem of being consistent. Internal rotation is a common, well known anatomical term. You can look it up in a dictionary. (I appreciated that BM used language that is direct and understandable.) So, IR is the medial rotation of the upper arm and forearm. If we use common anatomical definitions, the whip is a flexion of the arm followed by an extension of the arm.

Second, it is misleading for IR to somehow take credit for "the whip".

People have known about "the whip" forever and a day. My DD was taught the whip with the HE finish back in the mid-1990s. (Yes, I now know it was wrong.) And, she threw pretty well that way...maybe 55 to 58 MPH. Lots of kids threw, and still throw, with HE and a whip. It is widely taught.

Third, it certainly is possible to throw the ball with whip and no IR.

All a pitcher has to do is have the ball facing down at 9 rather than at 3B, and do the HE finish. She can also have a whip with the elbow leading the hand. It is easy.

Maybe I'm making a mountain of a molehill.

I argue that the IR style intensifies the arm-whip, and I assume the IR style of pitching generally includes an arm that is not straight/stiff.

I 100% agree with this. I'm convinced and "sold" that IR significantly increases a pitcher's performance.

 

[Doug Romrell]

Careful, there, Sluggers......You are at great risk if you agree with me on something.

 

[JJsqueeze]

I didn't say you couldn't get IR with a straight arm.
I didn't say IR and arm-whip are the same thing.
I argue that the IR style intensifies the arm-whip, and I assume the IR style of pitching generally includes an arm that is not straight/stiff.

ahh terminology....is I/R a pitching style? or is it a term used to describe a portion of the motion? If you cast the net and say that I/R is a pitching style that is all inclusive of the entire arm circle then I agree with you. But since internal rotation is a generic term, I use it narrowly defined way as being related solely to when a body part rotates towards the body.

 

[Doug Romrell]

ahh terminology....is I/R a pitching style? or is it a term used to describe a portion of the motion? If you cast the net and say that I/R is a pitching style that is all inclusive of the entire arm circle then I agree with you. But since internal rotation is a generic term, I use it narrowly defined way as being related solely to when a body part rotates towards the body.

I say "internal rotation" is a term used to describe. I also say that "internal rotation style" is a style of pitching, like "hello-elbow style" is a style of pitching. I will try to say "internal rotation style" when I'm referring to the style, which is a broader sense than just saying "internal rotation."

 

[JJsqueeze]

First, there is the problem of being consistent. Internal rotation is a common, well known anatomical term. You can look it up in a dictionary. (I appreciated that BM used language that is direct and understandable.) So, IR is the medial rotation of the upper arm and forearm. If we use common anatomical definitions, the whip is a flexion of the arm followed by an extension of the arm.

Second, it is misleading for IR to somehow take credit for "the whip".

People have known about "the whip" forever and a day. My DD was taught the whip with the HE finish back in the mid-1990s. (Yes, I now know it was wrong.) And, she threw pretty well that way...maybe 55 to 58 MPH. Lots of kids threw, and still throw, with HE and a whip. It is widely taught.

Third, it certainly is possible to throw the ball with whip and no IR.

All a pitcher has to do is have the ball facing down at 9 rather than at 3B, and do the HE finish. She can also have a whip with the elbow leading the hand. It is easy.

Maybe I'm making a mountain of a molehill.



I 100% agree with this. I'm convinced and "sold" that IR significantly increases a pitcher's performance.

That is basically exactly what I am saying. I think the whole point here is whether I/R is a pitching style or is it a term used to describe a specific type of motion. it is a side effect of how successful BMs work and coining of the term as it relates to pitching has been.

 

[JJsqueeze]

I say "internal rotation" is a term used to describe. I also say that "internal rotation style" is a style of pitching, like "hello-elbow style" is a style of pitching. I will try to say "internal rotation style" when I'm referring to the style, which is a broader sense than just saying "internal rotation."

you are a complicated guy

 

[Greenmonsters]

I say "internal rotation" is a term used to describe. I also say that "internal rotation style" is a style of pitching, like "hello-elbow style" is a style of pitching. I will try to say "internal rotation style" when I'm referring to the style, which is a broader sense than just saying "internal rotation."

Maybe if you were a little more flexible with your definitions and semantics, the coaches that you are having trouble with would be more open to considering what you are suggesting. Just a thought.

 

[Doug Romrell]

you are a complicated guy

Maybe. Maybe too much so.

As I see it, there are at least two styles of pitching--those who pull the ball down the back side and those who do not. Generally, I see the pullers as being the "IR style" pitchers, and the pushers as being, what I call, the "hello-elbow style" pitcher.

Again, while "hello elbow" is a term to describe a follow-through, I think it's generally associated with the pushers.
While "internal rotation" is a term used to describe arm motion, I think it's generally associated with the pullers.

Of course, I probably don't know what the hell I'm talking about. I'm still in the novice class.

 

[Doug Romrell]

Maybe if you were a little more flexible with your definitions and semantics, the coaches that you are having trouble with would be more open to considering what you are suggesting. Just a thought.

Given they aren't interested, I no longer discuss it with them. Further, I don't often use this terminology outside of this forum.