Internal Rotation Definition?

[Ken B]

As I see it, there are at least two styles of pitching--those who pull the ball down the back side and those who do not. Generally, I see the pullers as being the "IR style" pitchers, and the pushers as being, what I call, the "hello-elbow style" pitcher.

Again, while "hello elbow" is a term to describe a follow-through, I think it's generally associated with the pushers.
While "internal rotation" is a term used to describe arm motion, I think it's generally associated with the pullers.

To me, this is a pretty good understanding of high level mechanics.

 

[Doug Romrell]

"As I see it, there are at least two styles of pitching--those who pull the ball down the back side and those who do not."

THIS is what I see as being the main problem I have with the HS coaches who step in and meddle with the pitching mechanics of my three pitchers--they do not understand that there are pullers and there are pushers. They think the only way to pitch is to push the ball through release. When they see my pitchers pulling the ball (as they should), they step forward and offer the pitchers their expert advice--that they need to get their hand behind the ball in that 9:00 to release phase.) Given two of my three pitchers have very little game experience, I don't think their struggling in games should be blamed on pulling. I don't think the solution is to convert them to pushers. Confidence would be the issue, not the fact that they are pulling the ball down. Confidence mostly comes from experience--game time.

Knowing about the "internal rotation style" of pitching helps one understand pitchers who pull the ball down rather than push it down. If you're ever going to be in a position of authority over pitchers where you might be inclined to meddle with their mechanics, the least you could do is learn about internal rotation, arm-whip, and pulling the ball down the back side.

 

[pumpkinbear]

Third, it certainly is possible to throw the ball with whip and no IR.

All a pitcher has to do is have the ball facing down at 9 rather than at 3B, and do the HE finish. She can also have a whip with the elbow leading the hand. It is easy.

Sluggers

I don't get the above quote--when I face a ball down at 9, then whip (xfer speed from upper arm to lower arm), then I end up with my thumb or knuckles forward. Unless that's what you mean, I'm missing something.

If I'm not mistaken, you posted this:



to demonstrate a drop ball. As I understand it, IR takes place in the first 3-4 panes above. After that, even if she were to finish with palm/elbow toward home plate, I would call it an IR-style pitch.

Now, picture the ball facing down/toward home plate in the first 2 panes and the 3rd pane unchanged. If she did that, I would call it a HE-type delivery, even if the next seven panes were unchanged (showing IR). Furthermore, I believe whip would be eliminated.

If you or someone else could set me straight, I'd appreciate it.


Edit: I think I just said what Doug said in post #29. Doh!

 

[Rocketech1]

Try throwing overhand pushing the ball down and finishing straight down to your throwing side leg and see how much "arm whip" and "velocity" you get? Not much. Underhand throwing (also call windmill pitching) uses very similar mechanics to throwing overhand.

In my mind, throwing well, either overhand or underhand, has to involve arm whip and internal rotation mechanics. They go hand in hand.

 

[Rocketech1]

As I understand it, IR takes place in the first 3-4 panes above. After that, even if she were to finish with palm/elbow toward home plate, I would call it an IR-style pitch. [/I]

In fact I/R movement is happening before the first frame, during each frame, and after the last frame (from 12:00 into and through release).

 

[pumpkinbear]

In fact I/R movement is happening before the first frame, during each frame, and after the last frame (from 12:00 into and through release).

I agree with your quote above.

My earlier post is an attempt to make sure I understand the difference between IR (as you said, demonstrated in all 10 frames), and what has been described "IR style" that is based on what happens before ball release.

I believe the IR crowd (I'm a IR crowd wannabe) would call a pitch "IR style" if it utilized IR before ball release even if it finished with palm/elbow facing home plate after ball release.

To be clear, I'm a novice seeking clarification and not an expert asserting superior knowledge.

 

[Rocketech1]

I agree with your quote above.

My earlier post is an attempt to make sure I understand the difference between IR (as you said, demonstrated in all 10 frames), and what has been described "IR style" that is based on what happens before ball release.

I believe the IR crowd (I'm a IR crowd wannabe) would call a pitch "IR style" if it utilized IR before ball release even if it finished with palm/elbow facing home plate after ball release.

To be clear, I'm a novice seeking clarification and not an expert asserting superior knowledge.

I think we are all novices here, just some novices more advanced than others

I'm a little confused by this quote:

"I believe the IR crowd (I'm a IR crowd wannabe) would call a pitch "IR style" if it utilized IR before ball release even if it finished with palm/elbow facing home plate after ball release."

because I don't think it is possible to get into this hello elbow position without killing much of the natural internal rotation that should be taking place upstream before the release of the pitch.

Said another way, you would have to be pushing the ball down the arm circle to immediately finish into a hello elbow finish because the arm is traveling too fast to force it into that position, otherwise. We do see "fake" HE finishes all the time but it happens well after the arm and hand have completed most, if not all, of it's I/R.

sluggers DD is using classic I/R mechanics on her roll-over drop. If she tried to finish HE, there is no way she could without effecting upstream I/R mechanics in the pre-release frames.

Hope that makes sense?

 

[pumpkinbear]

I think we are all novices here, just some novices more advanced than others

I'm a little confused by this quote:

"I believe the IR crowd (I'm a IR crowd wannabe) would call a pitch "IR style" if it utilized IR before ball release even if it finished with palm/elbow facing home plate after ball release."

because I don't think it is possible to get into this hello elbow position without killing much of the natural internal rotation that should be taking place upstream before the release of the pitch.

Said another way, you would have to be pushing the ball down the arm circle to immediately finish into a hello elbow finish because the arm is traveling too fast to force it into that position, otherwise. We do see "fake" HE finishes all the time but it happens well after the arm and hand have completed most, if not all, of it's I/R.

sluggers DD is using classic I/R mechanics on her roll-over drop. If she tried to finish HE, there is no way she could without effecting upstream I/R mechanics in the pre-release frames.

Hope that makes sense?

I agree with everything you said (In other words, you're probably wrong).

When this We do see "fake" HE finishes all the time but it happens well after the arm and hand have completed most, if not all, of it's I/R. happens, I believe it's still what others have termed "IR style". In real time (without slo-mo video), it's easier to see the fake HE finish than the IR that takes place before release.

 

[sluggers]

Rocket and Pumpkin don't know the whole story. My DD did and still does throw with IR.

*BUT*, she was taught by her PCs the whip with an HE finish. She threw that way for probably one or two years. Somewhere around her junior year in HS, she *on her own* started throwing with IR. I tried to 'correct' her for a while, but, luckily, I gave up.

In fact I/R movement is happening before the first frame, during each frame, and after the last frame (from 12:00 into and through release).

The problem is that this definition makes IR everything, and therefore nothing.

 

[Doug Romrell]

A hello elbow finish means nothing to me, because pitchers using IR can still force a hello elbow finish. But as I've said, I see true hello elbow pitchers as push-the-ball-through-release pitchers. Clearly I'm not alone.

Sluggers, What you describe in your daughter is what I consider an IR-style pitcher regardless of how she finished.