Winning 'B' Nationals means you should have been playing in the 'A' Bracket

[vino1972]

If your team has a .500 record or better vs teams a class higher, your team should be playing a class higher. Easy as that. It's about competing not trophy hunting.

 

[1696]

The scenario you describe doesn't make sense to me. If you can win a 'B' World Series, then you should dominate 'B' level competition in your area. I don't see how a team could dominate its local 'B' competition, yet be dominated by the local 'A' competition.

I can't imagine there being such a clear divide between 'A' and 'B' in an area. If there's 25 teams playing in an area, how does it happen that the difference between #8 and #9 can be all that wide?

I agree with you CB. I wouldn't expect such a clear divide. However, I've seen it. At 12s we fielded 2 teams as evenly as we might. Put 1 in A and 1 in B. By mid season the team playing A ball was 2-8 and the team playing B was 8-2. The league permitted us to flip them. And the team that was 2-8 proceeded to go 10-0 and the team that was 8-2 went 1-9.

 

[nobrainhamster]

If your team has a .500 record or better vs teams a class higher, your team should be playing a class higher. Easy as that. It's about competing not trophy hunting.

This is what alot of people say, but this is a contradictory statement, right? You say it's about competing, but you want the competition eliminated from the start. You want teams out of the way, so your path to the trophy will be easier, right, based on that statement, at least.
the problem is this....3 classes (A,B,C) is not enough. Someone earlier talked about a C tournament they were deemed too good to participate in. C tournaments often have F teams playing in them. It's the same with all classes. THERE WILL BE TEAMS AT THE TOP OF ALL CLASSES THAT WILL DOMINATE THE REST. The so called "trophy hunting B teams" people complain about would get the same treatment from the top A teams. YES, it would be beneficial for them in the end, but it's tough to get pounded all the time. I have no problem with somebody being the top dog of the classes. There should be more, though, so the "victims" of trophy hunters could move down to a class they could be top dog in.

 

[Rocketech1]

Some tournaments around here will seed teams in separate brackets after pool play and you will play teams that are of similar skill level (for example, there is a gold, silver, and bronze bracket). This is the best of both worlds since you get a chance to "play up" against better teams in pool play but are placed (based on pool play record) in the appropriate bracket during single or double elimination.

 

[NoVA Softball]

Part of the problem is if there are really 6-8 teams in an area "clogging up" the top of a division (B or C) then they probably don't perceive themselves as dominant because they're often losing to each other. If you're playing .600 ball at "C" it's hard to decide it's time to jump to "B" for fear of winding up never winning a game.

In Virginia/MD/Delaware, USSSA solved this by reclassifying a huge number of 12U "C" teams (maybe a dozen or more) into "B" midseason of this year (including DD's team). Most of those teams had never even won a local "C" tournament, much less a large national. But as a group, those teams were filling the semis in every local tournament and younger/newer teams were 1-and-done almost every Sunday. I think it was a good decision to move them up all together -- and it turned out many/most of the teams were actually pretty solid "B" teams.

As far as a large gap between "B" and "A" -- my experience (mid-Atlantic USSSA ball) is that the difference is huge. DD's team just got back from USSSA Eastern Nationals in Ocean City where we played in the open bracket. We were 3-0 against "B" teams -- but 0-3 against "A" teams with two mercy-rule losses and a total of one run scored. Of the three "A" teams we faced, I would bet two of them would beat DD's team in 20 of 20 games. The other one would probably win 17 out of 20. So it seems to me the difference is huge -- but maybe that's because we are not a top "B" team.

 

[Cannonball]

My dd said that at the 12U tournament in Panama City, more than half of the "B" teams should have been "A." She had a team of all 11 year olds with the exception of 3 players and said that they didn't stand a chance.

 

[CoogansBluff]

As far as a large gap between "B" and "A" -- my experience (mid-Atlantic USSSA ball) is that the difference is huge. DD's team just got back from USSSA Eastern Nationals in Ocean City where we played in the open bracket. We were 3-0 against "B" teams -- but 0-3 against "A" teams with two mercy-rule losses and a total of one run scored. Of the three "A" teams we faced, I would bet two of them would beat DD's team in 20 of 20 games. The other one would probably win 17 out of 20. So it seems to me the difference is huge -- but maybe that's because we are not a top "B" team.

Your last sentence might hold the answer.

Let's say you have 200 teams.

A = 1-40
B = 41-200
Your team = 120.

So you are an average B team. You (the #120 team) play the #5, #15, #25 teams. You go 0-3 and get run-ruled twice. Then you play teams that are #100, #140, #160. You go 3-0. One was an upset. You conclude the difference between A and B is huge. On average, it is. The #20 team would generally smoke the #120 team.

But on the borderline - #40 vs. #41 - there is really no difference. You might go 2-8 vs. both of them.

If you play #40 in a tournament (classified as A), you think, OK, we can actually beat them every now and then, but they're clearly better than us.

But if you face #41-50 in a national World Series, and you get run-ruled, which can happen, you're wondering why they're playing in the B division. Well, there are thousands of B-level teams across the country. It's not surprising that the best one, the one that falls on the borderline, is a lot better than an average B team.

Of course, this is in a perfect world where teams are classified accurately to begin with. They are not. Some teams that are in the top 40 get classified as 41-200, and they stay there through the end of the season.

I don't disagree that teams may sand-bag or trophy hunt at nationals. But, there are other reasons for the dominance of the best teams in B. One is that the best B teams are really a lot better than the average B teams. It's unrealistic to think B means everybody should be able to beat everybody else. The difference between #41 and #120 is pretty big.

 

[Easton33]

Since you guys are talking about world's could you perhaps be seeing the difference in the level of ball because of the region?
Check out USSSA ranking for 14B nationally. They have a B team at #11 with a 42-9 record. This should be an A team. That being said, we happily handed them 1 of their losses but it was double OT. We didn't win our State, matter of fact a team that was a C team did. My point here is that there is no clear divide. We beat a top 15 B team and we are ranked in top 30, didn't get 1st or 2nd in our State, and just won a small 18u open tournament. Are we an A team or a B team? It's all about the regions I think. 42-9 is dominate but the got most of their wins from a different region. We actually were in a tournament and 3 of the top 25 (power rankings) from 3 different regions were in it. The top ranked team with the best record was the weakest of all 3 of us but they dominated in their region. So when playing national events you need to take into consideration the level of ball the region plays. Just my .02

 

[CoogansBluff]

They have a B team at #11 with a 42-9 record. This should be an A team.

Not necessarily.

I agree w/ your theory on the regions. There is not enough inter-region play to know the strength of teams nationwide, unless perhaps you use previous year's result from World Series.

But back to 42-9. ...

If you have 200 teams, and you classify the best 40 as A-level teams, then #41 might easily go 42-9 against #42 to #200.

Or if you have 20 teams, and the top 5 are classified as A. The #6 team might easily go 42-9 against #7 to #20.

 

[Easton33]

And another point here is if you are going to compete nationally you should be dominating locally. I see you guys talking the .500 win loss average. Who in their right minds would travel 400 to 900 miles, incurring all costs associated with meals, gas, and hotels rooms for a 4 and done tournament? The guy that doesn't retain his players, that's who. Losing all 4 and going home is a possibility for all teams but for the .500 team it is a probability.