Apparently,you didn't read my last post. I agree that you can better yourself with conditioning and improve your chances of being a good pitcher, but the superior athlete doing the same conditioning and the aforementioned will outperform those not so gifted athletes.As far as something being irrelevant to this post, who was it who brought up the movement, change of speeds etc. The one who posted this thread asked about creating speed. Touche'
What Creates Speed?
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Apparently,you didn't read my last post. I agree that you can better yourself with conditioning and improve your chances of being a good pitcher, but the superior athlete doing the same conditioning and the aforementioned will outperform those not so gifted athletes.As far as something being irrelevant to this post, who was it who brought up the movement, change of speeds etc. The one who posted this thread asked about creating speed. Touche'
halskinner
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- May 7, 2008
- 2,642
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There is always more speed in every pitcher. The instructor must know what to have the pitcher do and especially WHAT TO SAY to bring that speed out.
Confidence and knowledge are two factors that are always overlooked. Speed increases are NOT just a physical thing.
Confidence and knowledge are two factors that are always overlooked. Speed increases are NOT just a physical thing.
Occassionally and for a game or two...but far, far less than often. At 10U speed rules. At 12U speed and location rules. At 14U and 16U speed, location and movement rule far over movement and location. At these upper age and league levels speed alone won't cut it but don't worry, in every tournament there will be someone with speed AND location and movement. There will be the ultimate exceptions. People often point to Cat Osterman as someone who is college was great but didn't throw quite as hard as some of the flame throwers but she still threw very hard and in the upper end of female athletes at her peer age that pitched. Speed AND everything else is important.
Speed, location and movement are clearly all important for a high level pitcher. For the present, we're just trying to get to "marginally acceptable but quickly improving" pitcher. To even get there, there is a baseline of speed we need to achieve.
From the responses here, it seems that we are doing what we can at this point, short of gene therapy ;-). We do strength and conditioning (including bands, pushups, medicine ball toss) 3 nights a week, and work on pitching mechanics 3 to 4 nights a week. DD appears to actually enjoy the workouts with no signs of burning out due this schedule. If I am correct that there is a window of opportunity for developing fundamental pitching skills that closes on a kid at the ripe old age of early teens, then we have no time to waste.
I suspect that there is a component of the pitching motion that creates the extra "pop" I see as the ball leaves the hand of the high level pitcher. I've seen Taryne Mowatt, Sarah Pauley and Angela Tincher up close, and they clearly have it. I've seen high school pitchers who have it. I've seen 12U kids that have it. I just cannot figure out what "it" is. I further suspect that "it" is a component of mechanics that should be teachable.
A minor rant - I'm not trying to save a few bucks by trying to avoid paying a good pitching instructor. I would like nothing better than to find a pitching instructor in my area to work with on a weekly basis that has an understanding of (and ability to teach) some of the mechanics discussed in this forum. If they exist in my area, I haven't been able to find them. (Do you want to see a blank expression? Ask most pitching coaches about internal rotation!) So, I am left with spending an hour with someone who tells DD to snap up and touch her right shoulder, and cutting a check for 70 bucks. Of course this is frustrating, but it leaves me with an even greater appreciation for the folks who contribute to this forum.
From the responses here, it seems that we are doing what we can at this point, short of gene therapy ;-). We do strength and conditioning (including bands, pushups, medicine ball toss) 3 nights a week, and work on pitching mechanics 3 to 4 nights a week. DD appears to actually enjoy the workouts with no signs of burning out due this schedule. If I am correct that there is a window of opportunity for developing fundamental pitching skills that closes on a kid at the ripe old age of early teens, then we have no time to waste.
I suspect that there is a component of the pitching motion that creates the extra "pop" I see as the ball leaves the hand of the high level pitcher. I've seen Taryne Mowatt, Sarah Pauley and Angela Tincher up close, and they clearly have it. I've seen high school pitchers who have it. I've seen 12U kids that have it. I just cannot figure out what "it" is. I further suspect that "it" is a component of mechanics that should be teachable.
A minor rant - I'm not trying to save a few bucks by trying to avoid paying a good pitching instructor. I would like nothing better than to find a pitching instructor in my area to work with on a weekly basis that has an understanding of (and ability to teach) some of the mechanics discussed in this forum. If they exist in my area, I haven't been able to find them. (Do you want to see a blank expression? Ask most pitching coaches about internal rotation!) So, I am left with spending an hour with someone who tells DD to snap up and touch her right shoulder, and cutting a check for 70 bucks. Of course this is frustrating, but it leaves me with an even greater appreciation for the folks who contribute to this forum.
- Sep 3, 2009
- 261
- 18
Wow David, it sounds like we might be neighbors. I agree with you 100% about the value of this forum. Some of the contributors here are going to be saving me a lot of money because I'm done paying good money for wrist snaps. I'll still keep my eyes open for a real quality instructor and if I find one in the area I'll be willing to pay as long as my daughter (currently 9) wants to do this, but for now it's just me and her and forums such as this one.
Sorry for the tangent everyone. Just thought I might have been reading my own words in David's post and wanted to comment. =)
David B. and Tom,
It may be helpful if you state what area you live in - there may be an instructor that participates on here that can help you. One new reader to the forum found me by posting on here. I am generally not taking any new students, but I figure if someone is motivated and informed enough to read this forum and know what they are looking for, I will find a way to see them.
It may be helpful if you state what area you live in - there may be an instructor that participates on here that can help you. One new reader to the forum found me by posting on here. I am generally not taking any new students, but I figure if someone is motivated and informed enough to read this forum and know what they are looking for, I will find a way to see them.
What creates speed? Strong, explosive legs and good mechanics 
For optimal velocity, there are a number of things that need to be done correctly. If any one thing is not quite what it should be the ball will be slower than the best that that particular pitcher can throw.
I'm not usually the one that works with our pitchers, but I got to sit and watch them throw yesterday. Just noticed that the one that throws the hardest has a stiff arm all the way around her entire windmill and also cups the ball. Can only imagine if she were able to tweak those things. Yikes! She also one of the fastest on the team so her quick twitch muscles and the explosiveness in her legs work in her favor when it comes to speed.
David B: feeling your pain on finding a good instructor!
For optimal velocity, there are a number of things that need to be done correctly. If any one thing is not quite what it should be the ball will be slower than the best that that particular pitcher can throw.I'm not usually the one that works with our pitchers, but I got to sit and watch them throw yesterday. Just noticed that the one that throws the hardest has a stiff arm all the way around her entire windmill and also cups the ball. Can only imagine if she were able to tweak those things. Yikes! She also one of the fastest on the team so her quick twitch muscles and the explosiveness in her legs work in her favor when it comes to speed.
David B: feeling your pain on finding a good instructor!
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I work with pitchers on a basic level and would never claim to be an expert on coaching pitchers so this is IMHO if you have been around athletes long enough and watch players play when you see a D1 level player you know it, they have the "it". A good friend of mine coached girls varsity basketball for 16 years, had 4 D1 athletes in that time and he took a team to the finals of Div II Ohio state championship. We talk about this every once in awhile, there aren't that many elite athletes but when you have one you know it. That said solid mechanics and a lot of work can get a decent athlete to a level that will be rewarding to parent and daughter. If you read the postings by BoardMember on IR and find a good pitching coach the journey will be priceless. As MarkH had said many times watch what elite athletes do. Again IMHO where pitchers really create speed is the three frames from bringing the elbow down towards the bottom of the rib cage, making the rotation with the upper arm(humorous bone) , decelerating the upper arm, creating whip with the lower arm and letting it fly. In other words, learn IR. If you have RightViewPro with the clips of Finch, Henderson, Bay, etc and go through the three frames from pre release to elbow release you will see it. The only time you see elite pitchers get their hand on top of the ball is to throw a change up. If you don' t have RVP go to Siggy's site and look at Finch, Ueno and Osterman, you will see it. Good luck and enjoy.
David B,
There are people on this forum that have coached top top pitchers and you should defer to their advice if you are certain they are responsible for the mechanics that trained these top pitchers. I have however been around this game a while, been through this with two girls, made a lot mistakes so I can tell you from my perspective about what I have seen works for speed and what I see as secondary.
Priority #1 -
A WELL TIMED PITCHING MOTION WITH CORRECT THROWING MOTION USING THE INTERNAL ROTATION MECHANIC DESCRIBED ON THIS FORUM. This internal rotation mechanic should be able to be demonstrated from the three o clock position, the twelve o clock position, the full circle standing sideways and the full motion. It should be balanced and as effortless as a good overhand throw. If this is not somewhat mastered no extra push off, strength training, resistance bands, run throughs, triple arm circles, core training, or anything else will add meaningful speed. IF you accomplish priority #1 your daughter likely will throw in the top 15% of her age bracket speed wise.
After that all the other factors come into play that are described here, genetics being one of them.
Not Necessarily. Look at clips on You Tube of many male pitchers. the leap may get you closer to the batter but many of the men bring it up there very fast with a very modest leap.
I have found the idea of arm speed can be very very deceptive. At what part of the circle is maximum arm speed achieved by the best. It is quite possible to have high arm speed early in the circle even to 12 oclock and have below average arm speed on the way down or through the actual whip phase.
Concentrate on mechanics, internal rotation and whip. When you get there you will see more clearly what needs to be done next.
There are people on this forum that have coached top top pitchers and you should defer to their advice if you are certain they are responsible for the mechanics that trained these top pitchers. I have however been around this game a while, been through this with two girls, made a lot mistakes so I can tell you from my perspective about what I have seen works for speed and what I see as secondary.
Priority #1 -
A WELL TIMED PITCHING MOTION WITH CORRECT THROWING MOTION USING THE INTERNAL ROTATION MECHANIC DESCRIBED ON THIS FORUM. This internal rotation mechanic should be able to be demonstrated from the three o clock position, the twelve o clock position, the full circle standing sideways and the full motion. It should be balanced and as effortless as a good overhand throw. If this is not somewhat mastered no extra push off, strength training, resistance bands, run throughs, triple arm circles, core training, or anything else will add meaningful speed. IF you accomplish priority #1 your daughter likely will throw in the top 15% of her age bracket speed wise.
After that all the other factors come into play that are described here, genetics being one of them.
Not Necessarily. Look at clips on You Tube of many male pitchers. the leap may get you closer to the batter but many of the men bring it up there very fast with a very modest leap.
I have found the idea of arm speed can be very very deceptive. At what part of the circle is maximum arm speed achieved by the best. It is quite possible to have high arm speed early in the circle even to 12 oclock and have below average arm speed on the way down or through the actual whip phase.
Concentrate on mechanics, internal rotation and whip. When you get there you will see more clearly what needs to be done next.
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