Uppercut Swing

[Slapper23]

Welcome to the club, Wellphyt. You see how nasty some of SE's followers can be when you disagree or offer an honest critique of what you see. You're not the first nor certainly the last. My advice is to continue learning and making up your own mind. What you just experienced is just a bunch of noise.

You have checked out EH.com, and I would suggest checking out HittingIllustrated.com and see if it's for you. There have been several people who have made the switch, but of course they experienced the nastiness, even from SE himself.

I would say the greatest advertisement for HI.com IS the nastiness of "some" EH.com followers. If you're like me, you are only trying to learn as much as possible to be the best teacher as possible. What else is there??

Mike

 

[Wellphyt]

I view SE, Epstein, and Slaught, not so much as individuals, but rather businesses marketing and selling products to the public (Englishbeyhitting.com, mikeepsteinhitting.com and rightviewpro.com).

I would no more call SE or Epstein about their differences than I would call Bill Gates and ask him the differences between Windows Vista and Mac OS X Leopard. It seems more appropriate to do my own research, which includes talking with people who use their products.

I seriously doubt SE cares about my views on hitting. I know Epstein (outside of a public debate) could care less about what others think about his views on hitting.

I'm sure all the individuals running these businesses are great people who believe in what they are doing, but the bottom line is they are marketing and selling products to the public to make money. I'm just curious if SE's product is the same or similar to Epstein's product, and if not why?

The reference to Ted Williams was a serious question. As a kid growing up in New England I remember Ted giving hitting pointers during Red Sox rain delays. I actually copied his stance during my last year of HS ball. I wish I had adopted his technique but at the time I didn't now the difference between style and technique.

I'm sure some of you are familar with the interview of Kaitie Cochran during last year's college world series in which she stated how she has been studying TW since she was something like 9 years old. She actually keeps his
"Science of Hitting" book in her backpack. I tried to DVR her swing during the CWS but they kept walking her.

As far as the reference to Epstein's "Torque" drill, it's just a drill. The drill has a specific purpose and is only one part of the learning process. Elite hitters actually do look just like a hitter performing the torque drill. Check out the position of elite hitters after they have made contact and they are extending into their "power v" and follow through.

This sounds like the standard "Epstein teaches hitters to sit and spin" argument. Take one of his drills; the very first one in the process, and say that's what he teaches.

People can go to his website and check out pictures of his students with game swings, clearly showing their back foot up on it's toe at contact. Hardly sit and spin. If the second drill "Numbers Drill" is performed correctly (with emphasis on getting weight forward during the stride/toe tap) then there is no sit and spin.

While you're at his website, you can check out some of his students who have received college scholarships and or are playing in college.

Mark H - thanks for the heads up, I'll head over to Baseball Fever and check it out.

 

[tom.guerry]

skeptic -

Was there any content related aspect to your rant ? I would be happy to try to address any well formulated question related to hitting/mechanics if there is one in there.

As far as mentioning various people/systems, I think a lot can be learned from comparing and contrasting different patterns since the human comes with an innate set of patterns to guide learning.

Dixon describes 3 developmental patterns which apply to both throwing overhand and swinging, push, spin and whip which bascically map to arm throw vs upper body and arm vs total body.

Slaught/Candrea/Enquist emohasize the similarity of throwing and hitting.

In golf, Hardy describes two very different options for the total body pattern, 1 and 2 plane swings depending primarily on how the shoulders (scaps) work in connecting the upper limbs to the body.

As Hardy recommends in golf, regardless of which pattern you use, the way to make the swing consistent is to incorporate as many compatible aspects of the pattern as possible. Being familiar with both the patterns and how they differ lends a perpsective to understanding each individual pattern better.

The E-H/Nyman/PCR/PCRW/tilt and turn pattern is a one plane swing hands in shoulder plane pattern. The MLB/TW pattern is a 2 plane hips and hands, hips turn body level/hands swing down pattern where the two blend to form the swing plane of the bat.

While the golf swing is longer via arms and body, the baseball swing is shortened by minimizing arms as a lever so is is more one plane shouders and hands a with PCR or hands and hips as with traditional MLB.

Another important aspect of pattern is how handle torque and connected CHP/flail blend to accelerate the bat as best explained in baseball by Mankin's swing model (batspeed.com).

In golf this is best described by the Homer Kelley manual/swing blueprint THE GOLF MACHINE (best example of and engineer publishing an adequate swing "blueprint") as the difference between "swinging" (flail/centripetal force) and "hitting" (TORQUE).

SO,I would not think of bringing up different schools of thought as counterproductive, but rather as a means of better understanding what does and does not make up the universal/compatible elements of various patterns.

 

[Mark H]

Welcome to the club, Wellphyt. You see how nasty some of SE's followers can be when you disagree or offer an honest critique of what you see. You're not the first nor certainly the last. My advice is to continue learning and making up your own mind. What you just experienced is just a bunch of noise.

You have checked out EH.com, and I would suggest checking out HittingIllustrated.com and see if it's for you. There have been several people who have made the switch, but of course they experienced the nastiness, even from SE himself.

I would say the greatest advertisement for HI.com IS the nastiness of "some" EH.com followers. If you're like me, you are only trying to learn as much as possible to be the best teacher as possible. What else is there??

Mike

I have got to complain Mike. My side is hurting from laughing. A promoter of HI complaining of nastiness. That's the best one I've heard in a long time.

 

[Mark H]

I seriously doubt SE cares about my views on hitting. I know Epstein (outside of a public debate) could care less about what others think about his views on hitting.

Actually, if you signed up on his website, gave your number and asked him to call you and talk hitting, you better have your cell battery charged up.

 

[skeptic]

I would be happy to try to address any well formulated question related to hitting/mechanics if there is one in there.

I have asked you the same question about 5 times, and you have ignored or side-stepped it every time. And I'm sure will again:

How are you qualified to instruct people on how to build hitters when you don't do it yourself?

THAT is the foundation for content. Until you can answer this question, you have none.

It's a big part of what I do for a living. And I've paid my dues. You haven't. I don't presume to tell you how to perform as an MD, because I have no experience.

Return the favor.

 

[tom.guerry]

skeptic -

This is another off point ad hominem question which is often the pattern when posters are more intertested in ego than content.

I have coached bb and fp off and on since playing bb in college more than 35 years ago which was transition from wood to metal.

I still do video for some college and high school coaches as time allows.

I have posted a bio at several sites over the years.

Now, again, do you have ANY content related questions or are you just being a mouthpiece for other disgruntled posters ?

 

[Slapper23]

Skep, what do you do for a living? You mentioned something once about college softball. Are you building hitters? Are you a D1 Head Coach?

What are some of the teaching points you employ in working with hitters?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Wellphyt]

Originally posted by Mark H
Actually, if you signed up on his website, gave your number and asked him to call you and talk hitting, you better have your cell battery charged up.

Based on skeptic's respond to my previous post, I don't think a conversation with SE would go very well.

Originally posted by skeptic
How are you qualified to instruct people on how to build hitters when you don't do it yourself?

THAT is the foundation for content.

Teaching experience is relative to content within the framework of the blueprint an instructor is working with. However I don't think it's relative to how one describes the various swing patterns.

The only thing I care about is what I teach and whether or not what I teach is correct. So I'm more interested in trying to understand what others 'see' when they watch a ML hitter hit. I don't really care if they can teach it...And I certainly don't care if they agree with me. It's just one person's opinion on what they see. It's hard to have a meaningful discussion if eveyone agrees with each together.

Anyways back to the content stuff. I believe it's safe to say that the PCR and TW swing patterns are different. To my eye one of the differences seems to be how the hitter arrives at the palm-up/palm-down position, and how quickly.

The shoulder tilt towards the plate to set swing plane initially seems like a deviation from TW. But it may be more a matter of taking a different teaching approach to try and accomplish the same thing.

Whether intentional or not, I do think the PCR appoach has moved the discussion away from an emphasis on the importance of the lower body/hips leading the hands, to an emphasis on upper body shoulder action. Maybe it's just because that's where the biggest divergence is between the PCR and TW patterns.

I initial came here to learn more about the apparent different rotational swing patterns that are being taught. I have been using Epstein's material for 3 years and I learn a lot in discussions where his approach is challenged.
I don't get my feelings hurt when someone tries to poke holes in the hitting guru's material that I'm using to teach. It's actually very helpful. If what I'm teaching is correct then it will stand up to criticism.

So far I've heard:
Does what you teach look like videos of ML hitters when they swing?
Answer: Yes. Maybe not all, but quite a few, and of course TW.

You teach sit and spin.
Answer: No, not if the hitter gets their weight forward in the stride.

Hitters that hit the way that you teach can't hit D1 pitching.
Answer: Not worth answering, other than to say; come on we're talking about the mechanics of the best hitter of all time.

Your hitters aren't taught to tilt towards the plate.
Answer: Once the brain makes the go decision the hitters eye hand coordination kicks in and body posture is an involuntary movement. IMO things are happening way too fast for the brain to consciously know how the bodies' shoulders are spatially positioned in relationship to the bathead. It's the old cause and effect debate. I say the cause of shoulder tilt is the brain telling the unit of the; bat, hands, forearms, elbows and shoulders to; GO FIND THE BALL.

It seems to me that TW's emphasis on getting to palm-up/palm-down quickly was to get a headstart on setting swing plane. On pitches up the bat stays more level to the ground, on pitches down the bathead contines to drop until your eye hand coordination says you're on plane. Basically a hitter knows at a bare minimum that the bathead is going to have to be at least level to the ground to hit a pitch at the letters. So lets go ahead and get it to that point quickly and then adjust down from there. IMO that is a significant headstart and allows a hitter more time to adjust to pitch location.

I'm sure there is more, but feel free to keep them coming. It really helps with the learning process. If the material I'm using can't stand up to a little scrutiny, then it's probably not worthy of teaching.

 

[jofus13]

You see how nasty some of SE's followers can be when you disagree or offer an honest critique of what you see.

You have checked out EH.com, and I would suggest checking out HittingIllustrated.com and see if it's for you. There have been several people who have made the switch, but of course they experienced the nastiness, even from SE himself.

Wait a second...isn't HI.com's Richard's website, aka "JoeBad" and a host of other aliases that have been banned from every message board around, and you're complaining about "nastiness"?

Or am I confused about it being Richard's website? If so, I apologize