Uppercut Swing

[skeptic]

A cue that seems to work is to tell the student to push against their big toe of their back foot as their rear hip triggers.

Well, maybe.

But indulge me for a second, and lets see if we can both learn something:

Stand opposite one of your hitters. Have her load. Grasp her shoulders firmly. Then tell her to launch the swing and rotate her hips.

Typical young hitters (or older mediocre hitters) will basically push with the rear hip, turn the rear knee, and turn the rear foot on the ground. And it is not at all difficult to hold their shoulders in place.

Really good hitters will tend to use their upper legs, hips (especially the front hip) and forcefully enter rotation. Their rear foot will start to roll up onto the toes even before you release their shoulders. And you WILL have trouble holding their shoulders in place.


I am NOT picking on Epstein. I have met him personally at an NFCA coaching convention, and I liked him a lot. I'm sure he is good working with kids. That said, when I look at hitters on his web site, or for that matter, who have been working with his instructional materials, they are instantly recognizable. They tend to almost universally have a LOT of weight on their back side, so if that isn't his message, his message isn't getting through.

It is obvious that Epstein considers the number one problem he faces to be lunging.

That has not been my experience, but I respect his opinion. I just think he has too much emphasis on curing this problem, which I don't find that prevelant. In fact, I am far more concerned with getting weight to the front side. Failure to do so is a much bigger problem than lunging for female hitters, in my opinion. Of course, once the weight is forward, the front side has to firm up and rotation has to occur.

From what I know, Epstein does a good job with getting hitters to understand the importance of getting on plane, and leading with the hips.

But I feel he does nothing to teach hitters how to use their shoulders, arms, and hands. Certainly, resting the bat on the deltoid precludes much emphasis here, and he seems to say as much on his videos. That is a huge limitation for me.

The fence drill does not look at all like the swing I am trying to build in hitters. I undersand that Epstein wants hitters to stay "inside the ball." But this is the wrong drill to accomplish it, in my mind. Just as easy to disconnect by being too far inside and pushing the hands forward as it is to diosconnect in any of dozens of other ways. And the way Epstein implements the fence drill, the hands DO seem to push forward.


Do yourself a favor, and try the deal holding the shoulders, then think about what you observe when you do it.


Best of luck with your young hitters. You have a crucial job in their development. I can tell you for a certainty that by the time they are college aged, it is very hard to change them. To a great extent, those of us who work with older hitters are dependent on what you do years before.

 

[Wellphyt]

skeptic,

Stand opposite one of your hitters. Have her load. Grasp her shoulders firmly. Then tell her to launch the swing and rotate her hips.

Typical young hitters (or older mediocre hitters) will basically push with the rear hip, turn the rear knee, and turn the rear foot on the ground. And it is not at all difficult to hold their shoulders in place.

This sounds similar to squish the bug.

Really good hitters will tend to use their upper legs, hips (especially the front hip) and forcefully enter rotation. Their rear foot will start to roll up onto the toes even before you release their shoulders. And you WILL have trouble holding their shoulders in place.

Sounds exactly like what I'm teaching. It's the #2 position I describe. If done correctly, and you are holding the batters shoulders, you will feel a very forceful tug because of the stretch. TW is my model and his stretch and bat lag were amazing. I have video clips of his swing that I use as a reference.

I am NOT picking on Epstein. I have met him personally at an NFCA coaching convention, and I liked him a lot. I'm sure he is good working with kids. That said, when I look at hitters on his web site, or for that matter, who have been working with his instructional materials, they are instantly recognizable. They tend to almost universally have a LOT of weight on their back side, so if that isn't his message, his message isn't getting through.

Please pick away, you're not going to hurt my feelings if you don't agree with what or how Epstein teaches. It's hard to have a meaningful discussion if we all just sit around, pat each other on the back and agree on everything.

He just revamped his website a couple of days ago. It looks like he is getting serious about taking this to the next level. He has some pictures up of some of his students performing game swings and they look pretty darn good to me.

It is obvious that Epstein considers the number one problem he faces to be lunging.

That has not been my experience, but I respect his opinion. I just think he has too much emphasis on curing this problem, which I don't find that prevelant. In fact, I am far more concerned with getting weight to the front side. Failure to do so is a much bigger problem than lunging for female hitters, in my opinion. Of course, once the weight is forward, the front side has to firm up and rotation has to occur.

My experience is that Epstein puts equal emphasis on TW's big three, and has added to TW's big three a fourth emphasis which is getting weight forward during the stride. This is in addition to his emphasis on the importance of the mental side of hitting, which he and TW believed/believe was 50% part of the equation.

The group of 12 year old FP hitters I'm working with now all place too much weight forward at contact. Basically hitting off of their front leg. It reminds me of a golf swing. Very little power, struggle with fast pitching, weak opposite field hitting, small dead zone.

But I feel he does nothing to teach hitters how to use their shoulders, arms, and hands. Certainly, resting the bat on the deltoid precludes much emphasis here, and he seems to say as much on his videos. That is a huge limitation for me.

Drill down some in his material and you will find that he believes that as a hitter matures, moving the back elbow and hands off the shoulder during the load can add to the swing. But, and this is a big but; only if the hitter can get back to the launch position on time and correctly positioned. Until a hitter matures, he is willing to give up some bat speed for timing. He believes that timing is critical to a productive swing.

My DD started to naturally move the bat off her deltoid within two years. We ended up going back to the deltoid because she was dropping the bat head when she loaded. Everytime a movement is added at the younger ages, there is more chance of something going wrong with the bat head and timing.

The fence drill does not look at all like the swing I am trying to build in hitters. I undersand that Epstein wants hitters to stay "inside the ball." But this is the wrong drill to accomplish it, in my mind. Just as easy to disconnect by being too far inside and pushing the hands forward as it is to diosconnect in any of dozens of other ways. And the way Epstein implements the fence drill, the hands DO seem to push forward.

You are correct that the fence drill is designed to teach the hitter what it 'feels' like to have the hands follow the rotating upper torso (keeping hands inside the ball). I know of the push you are talking about and what you are seeing is the hands pushing out into the 'power v' and the bat unable to come off the back deltoid (because of the wall) into the 90 degree angle contact position. When a hitter faces live pitching the eye hand coordination takes over and the bat head comes off the deltoid and finds the ball.

At a bare minimum, if performed correctly the hands will always be at the correct position in relationship to the body at least until the upper torso has rotated to face where the pitcher would be. Which is the primary purpose of the drill...stay connected until contact.

It's actually a very effective drill for it's intended purpose.

Best of luck with your young hitters. You have a crucial job in their development. I can tell you for a certainty that by the time they are college aged, it is very hard to change them. To a great extent, those of us who work with older hitters are dependent on what you do years before.

I couldn't agree more. Which is why I use TW's swing as a yardstick...and why I'm always researching. Trust me when I say that the girls I'm working with have virtually no technique and have no where to go but up.

 

[Mark H]

My experience is that Epstein puts equal emphasis on TW's big three, and has added to TW's big three a fourth emphasis which is getting weight forward during the stride..

Good to hear. He's caught $%^^ for it long enough on the net.

This is in addition to his emphasis on the importance of the mental side of hitting, which he and TW believed/believe was 50% part of the equation.

He's always been great on the mental side of hitting. No reservations at all there.

 

[tom.guerry]

skep said -

"As for ego, I have a healthy one, and am proud of my accomplishments in the sport. However, I am ENTIRELY open to learning from others. But feel there is far too much at stake to do so blindly. No credentials, no interest. And for me, the most important aspect of the credentialing process is the experience of the individual in developing hitters hands-on. I suspect - and HOPE - others feel the same way. Perhaps not, but IMO, they should. "

You have a big ego ? So that's what that is. Probably from Texas too.

If you are open to learning, just take the info and try it. it doesn' matter for your purposes where it comes from or how many I work with or how many try what I recommend and have success with it. I give plenty of detail and you can just try it and see.

 

[tom.guerry]

Well said (really well said) :

Then comes the #2 position which up until recently I had difficulty communicating to younger players. A cue that seems to work is to tell the student to push against their big toe of their back foot as their rear hip triggers. IMO this cue gives the student the correct feel of the rear hip driving into the pitch and setting up the whip effect that I see ML hitters doing.

great stuff.

I do much the same thing and when i teach/do analysis, use the kinesiological terms at the same time because they constitute the best way to describe the universal throwing and swinging pattern/sequences/synch of upper and lower body.

Even young kids can pick up these terms quickly and have fun with them.

I call this big toe or ball of foot push foot eversion, not quite the same as extension.

skeppie is going to really like this kinesio stuff I'll bet.

 

[Wellphyt]

Good to hear. He's caught $%^^ for it long enough on the net.

For clarification purposes, Epstein's emphasis on getting
'weight forward during the stride' is not new. It's in my "On Target" dvd series which is about 4 years old. Plus I believe his message board references it even earlier.

 

[Slapper23]

Most definitely, Well. I hate it when Epstein is mischaracterized and misrepresented.

Mike

 

[tom.guerry]

Mike -

You will enjoy this, now BM is an advocate of the "arm action is king" theory.

Or as Slaught says, if you can throw, you can hit.

Next thing you know it will be immediate launch and spend and early handle torque.

Baseball Fever - View Single Post - Best cues to teach load

BM: "The upper load is mostly controlled by the upper arms (humerous), NOT THE HANDS, and NOT THE WRISTS..........."

I think BM has been reading and is not afraid his ego will be damaged trying things from uncredentialed sources.

Maybe that could be safe for Skeppie's ego too.

 

[Wellphyt]

Most definitely, Well. I hate it when Epstein is mischaracterized and misrepresented.

I think some of the mischaracterization may come from not studying and using the material enough. I'm still learning stuff from his material that I somehow missed the first 20 times watching his dvds. I think sometimes the brain works on a 'need to know basis'. You get started teaching...eventually get stuck somewhere...which forces you to go back and drill down in the material to find the answer...then go back to teaching...get stuck again...drill down some more...and so on.

One reason I try not to comment specifically about other guru's material is because I don't have their material and therefore don't truly know what they teach.

One of the reasons for me coming here was to learn more about what E-H teaches from those who use his material. That hasn't gone very well, which is fine. I learned enough to answer a couple of questions that are important to me.

 

[Slapper23]

Wellphyt,

Dang it! I had a lengthy post written, but the system ate it! Suffice to say, I at one time studied Englishbey's hitting philosophy. I spent time on his web site, purchased his advanced CD , talked with him several times on the phone, lots of emails, and eventually came to the conclusion that what he was teaching did not represent the ML swing - which I was after.

This wasn't about ego or friendships - I was after the truth. I eventually came to the realization that what Tom Guerry was talking about for years, since I first met him in 1999 on the old Fastpitch Forum, was indeed correct. What Tom was talking was the ML swing. As I mentioned once before, there is a D1 perennial Top 20 softball coach who thinks Tom is pretty sharp on this hitting stuff. I agree.

Mike