Turning the barrel

[HYP]

Thats is because Bonds says "chop down" and Bonds says he will undercut the ball.
So when you tell kids to swing down, yet keep the hands above the ball?

Can the barrel move down while the hands stay above the ball? I do not tell kids to swing down. I tell them to attack down to behind the ball with the barrel. This is off of a tee. During front toss. I just say be as short and direct to the ball with the barrel.

 

[HYP]

If you're thinking anything but "swing down" against 85 mph or faster, you won't hit the ball. The mechanic is turning the barrel in conjunction with the lower body. The thought needs to be hammering down with the top hand. MLB players do swing down. It gets turned into the plane of the pitch by the body.

Yep, if you get yourself in a good position of contact and freeze, then stand straight up. The hands will still be around shoulder height. This is why I say you swing down but do not drop the hands. The body is doing what it can to create a strong platform for the hands.

 

[redhotcoach]

Thats is because Bonds says "chop down" and Bonds says he will undercut the ball.
So when you tell kids to swing down, yet keep the hands above the ball?

Maybe I missed something, but at what time 0:00 does Bonds say "chop down"? The "tomahawk" thing? He is ribbin Jennie to the media..."I just drop the barrel." Maybe I am the only one that catches it, but he is just poking fun with Finch.

During the actual lesson.
About a 100 he says "Get the top hand through" Several times as he is talking his top hand he says "The quickest way to the ball is straight down" and he shows his hands going diagonal in a straight line ///. Watch video of his game hits....that is the motion his hands take to contact. He does what he just said. They are up near his shoulder and they go in a fairly straight line down/ to contact.

 

[HYP]

Maybe I missed something, but at what time 0:00 does Bonds say "chop down"? The "tomahawk" thing? He is ribbin Jennie to the media..."I just drop the barrel." Maybe I am the only one that catches it, but he is just poking fun with Finch.

During the actual lesson.
About a 100 he says "Get the top hand through" Several times as he is talking his top hand he says "The quickest way to the ball is straight down" and he shows his hands going diagonal in a straight line ///. Watch video of his game hits....that is the motion his hands take to contact. He does what he just said. They are up near his shoulder and they go in a fairly straight line down/ to contact.

Yep, and what happens if you add in the pulling rear hip and the tilting shoulders, with that hand path?

 

[redhotcoach]

Thats is because Bonds says "chop down" and Bonds says he will undercut the ball.
So when you tell kids to swing down, yet keep the hands above the ball?

Hey! I just went through the whole video....he doesn't say either of those things!

 

[jbooth]

Yep, and what happens if you add in the pulling rear hip and the tilting shoulders, with that hand path?

Yes, it is the spine tilt, and the tilted shoulder turn that flatten the barrel path out. His hands start it directly down and the body action and angles, flatten the path.

That's why telling someone to keep the back shoulder up and stay tall, will not work. If you take the barrel down while doing that, the barrel will go straight down across the ball's path and never level out.

 

[jbooth]

I have heard of the Hanson principle. I have no idea why we call it that. I believe Mark Hanson once said compare everything to video of the best. I have no problem with that at all. I 100% believe you should compare to the best. Why would not want to?

Believe what you see. That is fine but also believe what created what you see.

Never heard a pro say throw the barrel into the ground or a lot of the things you are saying. I guess unless you have tried these cues and have an understanding of what it is like to have some athleticism and to have been in the box, these cues and thoughts make no sense to you.

It is about being short to the ball. It is about staying on top. Keeping the hands above the ball. It is about being direct.

I have no idea if you are in the twilight zone or not. Do you hear Rod Serling? I have only worked with a few girls as it pertains to hitting. I primarily work with young men from 8 to 51.

Here is a few videos for you. I know his mechanics look different then they do in his game swings. There is a reason he is doing what he does.

IMO, the reason that A-Rod goes into horrible slumps, is that he gets into making game swings like these practice swings. He DOES get into streaks of swinging down, and he pops up, swings and misses and grounds out. Then you watch him when he gets on a power streak and you can see his swing levels out as it should.

Why wouldn't you want to practice what works instead of something else? Practicing swinging down is good if you're trying to fix a loopy swing, or a habit of dropping the hands before launch. But, if you don't have those issues, why would you practice pounding the ball into the ground 20 feet in front of you?

 

[jbooth]

For what it's worth, I think with Mann's rant above we've reached a pretty interesting aha moment...IF you're willing to follow along with some pretty smart posters and think about things a little bit differently:

In the end, the way to use the Hanson Principle is NOT to just try to mimic what you see on video (for instance, try to actively swing with an uppercut), but rather you must understand the under the hood mechanics that are *causing that look*. Those two things -- what you see and what causes that look -- are NOT the same.

Hyp has been chasing this idea across a couple of different threads now...it's been interesting and very instructive to watch him try to articulate it.

Indeed, the idea that swinging down/having a strong top hand/actively turning the barrel will ultimately create (the seemingly paradoxical) "nike swoosh" UPWARD swing path is the perfect example of "what you see" vs. "what causes it" in action. This quote from that "other" site describes what's happening: "when you do what [Bonds] does in his rear hip socket.....those downward moving hands TURN the barrel up." Aha.

In short: you don't get the Nike swoosh barrel path by consciously trying to swing along that upward path with an uppercut. You don't keep the elbow from getting ahead of the hands ("solve" bat-drag) by consciously stopping the elbow at your hip or pinning the barrel to your shoulder to freeze your elbows/hands altogether. You don't get proper hand usage by "showing the palm of your top hand to the pitcher as long as possible", even though slow-mo video shows that sort of "look" (which is really a result of a well-executed barrel tip and turn).

If anything should be obvious, we all won't ever reach agreement here. You've got to pick the people and ideas that ring true to you...

Getting the barrel to level out after the initial downward action, has nothing to do with the rear hip. It has to do with the spine and shoulder angles as rotation occurs. And, what the front elbow does.

 

[jbooth]

Very good comments, Rich K.

Quick story - I played around with scap action a few years back (maybe 5) and developed a very quick tee swing (4.5 frames)....but the swing did not resemble any of the good pro swings we are using like Posey, Longoria, etc....

The more I tried to adjust positions to match video - the worse it got....and it was not a swing that worked even in a cage...it was all about trying to maintain positions....hinge angles, connection points, deadening the hands, turning the shoulders etc....

The first big aha was throwing bats....then it was allowing myself to literally turn the bat with my hands and wrists on a tee swing....all of sudden things started looking more like a good swing....I have never returned to the land of "Positions"....my teaching is all about FEEL....feel the barrel come around, feel your hands and wrists move the barrel, feel the hands path to adjust to a pitch, feel yourself organizing the swing like a throw, feel your bottom hand rolling over.....it may be all practical advice, but it works - just as all the old school advice has put thousands of kids in the Pros.....

IMO, you shouldn't even think about the scapula. It is a non-issue. Bio-mechanically, the scapula moves in conjunction with any movement of the humerus. If you load your hands in the correct position, the scapula will also get in the correct position. The scapula is a stabilizer. Because the humerus "hangs" or "floats" at the shoulder joint, it needs support. The scapula attaches to the spine, and the clavicle and the humerus. It moves with the humerus in different directions. It protracts, retracts, adducts, elevates, and depresses. The muscles that move it help with front arm action in a swing, but the rear scapula movement doesn't do much in regard to providing power in the swing.

Pinching the rear scapula aids with powering the swing because when the scap is pinched it means that you have loaded your hands well, and have stretched the anterior muscles of the rear deltoid, and the rear pecs and some other muscles that will then contract when you swing. The rear scap simply moves with the humerus when those other muscles pull on the humerus and the scap.

 

[RayR]

Yes, Jim - that was the point - the scap action was a dead end....

IMO, you shouldn't even think about the scapula. It is a non-issue. Bio-mechanically, the scapula moves in conjunction with any movement of the humerus. If you load your hands in the correct position, the scapula will also get in the correct position. The scapula is a stabilizer. Because the humerus "hangs" or "floats" at the shoulder joint, it needs support. The scapula attaches to the spine, and the clavicle and the humerus. It moves with the humerus in different directions. It protracts, retracts, adducts, elevates, and depresses. The muscles that move it help with front arm action in a swing, but the rear scapula movement doesn't do much in regard to providing power in the swing.

Pinching the rear scapula aids with powering the swing because when the scap is pinched it means that you have loaded your hands well, and have stretched the anterior muscles of the rear deltoid, and the rear pecs and some other muscles that will then contract when you swing. The rear scap simply moves with the humerus when those other muscles pull on the humerus and the scap.