Turning the barrel

[Chris O'Leary]

Adrian Gonzalez has a vertical bat. Here's another view of Gonzalez:

LOL.

It's only vertical if you're unable to think in three dimensions.

I figured that was what was going on, but I wasn't sure.

No, Mauer is at 45 degrees.

It makes no difference where the barrel is. It's getting from vertical to flat, from tipped to flat, from 45 degrees to flat. All high-level hitters turn it. Gonzalez goes from vertical and tipped... he turns the barrel. Mauer turns it. Morneau turns it.

90 is vertical, and 45 != 90.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I don't think he meant, literally, absolutely vertical. I think he means that turning the barrel is moving the barrel from relatively upright, above the head, to a more horizontal or flat position behind the back. At least that's how I interpret what he stated.

I'm surprised at that. I thought the "turn the barrel" advocates were talking about the barrel arcing from above the head, toward the catcher.

What pstein describes is; IMO simply what Ted Williams called, "flattening the bat." It moves toward a relatively horizontal position as the back elbow drops. If what pstein describes is what other advocates mean, then, in my terms that is just flattening, and/or preparing to throw the barrel. The throw comes after the flattening.

So it's just another word for a running start.

Methinks they are just renaming commonly-used terms so that they can charge for the thesaurus.

 

[jbooth]

Since jbooth and a few others have asked about turning the barrel, I'm starting a new thread to help answer the question. Turning the barrel is (simply put) getting the bat from vertical to flat so the rear leg/hip drive the barrel to contact. The pressure sensation must be in the hands. However, that doesn't mean the phalanges are causing it. The direction of the barrel turn is key. It is NOT in a line with the catcher. The barrel is turned in between the backstop and the dugout behind the hitter.

Bio-mechanically, turning the barrel is applying force perpendicular to the handle. The rear humerus adducts while the lead humerus both internally rotates and abducts. The teres minor is partially responsible for the rear arm's adduction, though it's rather weak. The latissimus dorsi serves to adduct the rear arm as well, as does the teres major.

This clip of Adrian Gonzalez displays the action rather well.

I'm fairly sure that I understand the part of the swing that you're describing, and if so, you made a couple of articulation errors, and since this is the "technical" forum, I'll correct.

The dropping of the rear elbow is mostly adduction of the rear humerus, but there is also a tiny bit of external rotation of the humerus as the MLB hitter tries to keep his top palm facing the pitcher as the elbow drops.

The action of the lead arm, simultaneous with the rear elbow drop is; some flexion of the humerus at the shoulder joint, combined with some supination of the lead forearm. There is little, if any, internal rotation of the lead humerus. There is; some horizontal adduction as the hands load back

Although the movements are the same in almost all MLB swings, the amount of lead arm flexion and supination, varies according to the hitter's style. Barry Bonds has much more flexion and supination during his movement to do as you describe, than Adrian Gonzalez, or Albert Pujols have.

I did not think that "turn the barrel" meant what you describe. I'd like to hear another advocate of "turn the barrel", point out where in the swing process, that it happens.

I don't need technical bio-mechanical terms. Just point out to me, the start and end point of the movement. Preferably with a marked up video.

To be complete about the articulations in the phase you describe; there is also elevation and adduction of the front scapula, and depression and protraction of the rear scapula.

 

[RayR]

The hand pressures that work to turn the barrel, flatten the barrel first....there aren't phases....it is a blended move....one hitter can start flatter then another, but they both have to flatten to the pitch being thrown regardless of where they start....it is not something we spend any real time on....most players already flatten too much....the emphasis on teaching turning the barrel becomes getting the barrel from behind their head to the ball in the shortest amount of time....

Teaching the bottom hand action is part of this.....the pressure of the bottom hand to want roll into contact exerts force on the handle in the opposite direction that the top hand is working....

 

[redhotcoach]

Hi Jim.
Just a quick couple comments, I am out of town, and away from my computer...plus watching Expendables 2.

Yes ..relatively upright, maybe bottom hand under top hand bhut is a good description. The top of the barrel does move first toward the catcher...if it starts "above the head, I think just depends on the hitter."

I am not familiar with Ted describing "flattening the barrel", don't have my book near. The word flattening brings the picture in my mind of a hitter just letting the barrel fall below their shoulder and then swinging around it. The word leveling brings up that same image.

Flattening and preparing to throw and throw comes after flattening...might be the same thing...but it just sounds so two movey (technical term) to me. I think of the turn and throw as one forceful move the is almost continually changing direction...turning. Not a mild force one direction, then a high force a different direction. I believe their is high force at the top of the backwards c or nike swish that turns into a throw as it whips (like a water skiier whips toward the ramp when the boat turns him) around the corner.

 

[jbooth]

So it's just another word for a running start.

Methinks they are just renaming commonly-used terms so that they can charge for the thesaurus.

It seems that a new esoteric term is invented every week, to describe actions that already had descriptive terms. It's hard to keep up.

 

[jbooth]

The hand pressures that work to turn the barrel, flatten the barrel first....there aren't phases....it is a blended move....one hitter can start flatter then another, but they both have to flatten to the pitch being thrown regardless of where they start....it is not something we spend any real time on....most players already flatten too much....the emphasis on teaching turning the barrel becomes getting the barrel from behind their head to the ball in the shortest amount of time....

Teaching the bottom hand action is part of this.....the pressure of the bottom hand to want roll into contact exerts force on the handle in the opposite direction that the top hand is working....

I believe I understand what you're saying, and I don't disagree, but that doesn't describe the term "turn the barrel" as pstein described it.

You're pretty much calling "turn the barrel" as the whole action of bat to ball. Correct me if I got you wrong, but you're saying turn the barrel includes the flatten and the throw.

 

[RayR]

Yes, flatten and throw....one move.....I have said before that the barrel's inertia needs to be overcome before you see it move in more of an arc....before the arc path is the flattening - but it happens so quick you don't want to teach it in steps or you lose the arc part and create too sweepy of a barrel path....

As far as the bottom hand....yes it will flatten first as part of getting on plane....but imo it helps a hitter to think that she is just trying to backhand from the start to tighten everything up....once you move in fast motion you increase the amount of slop in the swing you need to control....hence hitters always working in taking the barrel down to the ball in tee work of dry swings.....

I believe I understand what you're saying, and I don't disagree, but that doesn't describe the term "turn the barrel" as pstein described it.

You're pretty much calling "turn the barrel" as the whole action of bat to ball. Correct me if I got you wrong, but you're saying turn the barrel includes the flatten and the throw.

 

[jbooth]

Hi Jim.
Just a quick couple comments, I am out of town, and away from my computer...plus watching Expendables 2.

Yes ..relatively upright, maybe bottom hand under top hand bhut is a good description. The top of the barrel does move first toward the catcher...if it starts "above the head, I think just depends on the hitter."

I am not familiar with Ted describing "flattening the barrel", don't have my book near. The word flattening brings the picture in my mind of a hitter just letting the barrel fall below their shoulder and then swinging around it. The word leveling brings up that same image.

Flattening and preparing to throw and throw comes after flattening...might be the same thing...but it just sounds so two movey (technical term) to me. I think of the turn and throw as one forceful move the is almost continually changing direction...turning. Not a mild force one direction, then a high force a different direction. I believe their is high force at the top of the backwards c or nike swish that turns into a throw as it whips (like a water skiier whips toward the ramp when the boat turns him) around the corner.

Well, of course it is all a flow, not two separate moves, but you go through the flattening phase before the throw.

I've posted this before. The captions below the pictures may be hard to read, so I'll quote them.

In the book, there are two frames prior to the frame 1 that I show below.

In the first frame in the book he states "The lead foot strides eight inches toward the pitch.
In the next frame he states, "Bat is flattening out, left (rear) elbow comes in."
In frame 1 below he states, "Hips (red line) begin to open up into the pitch."
In frame 2 he states, "Bat is flatter still as hips lead way into swing."

So after the stride, and until frame 2, he is flattening the bat, or in your terms, starting to "turn the barrel."

In frame 3 below, he states, "A decision is made on the pitch; swing."

So, IMO, he flattens the bat and then swings. He can check his swing after the flatten, or he can go. If he goes, it is a flow. There is no pause between flatten and swing. You are deciding on the pitch as you flatten, and if your decision is go, there is no stopping the flow. You go.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I believe I understand what you're saying, and I don't disagree, but that doesn't describe the term "turn the barrel" as pstein described it.

You're pretty much calling "turn the barrel" as the whole action of bat to ball. Correct me if I got you wrong, but you're saying turn the barrel includes the flatten and the throw.

It's almost as if they are establishing a connection between the barrel and the rotation of the upper body and shoulders.