Turning the barrel, direction?

[jryan15]

Simply consider it to be part of the swing sequence. I do.

I hate that it is so easy for me to get tripped by semantics. It would probably be very helpful to build a common definition for things like "swing sequence", "launch sequence", "Go!" and sticky it to the forum.

What I mean to say is that in what I teach, at Go/Launch, the only thing to actively do is turn the barrel. This part of the swing has a critical timing element, an instantaneous "do". Coiling could have started earlier or later in the hitters individual process, but the only thing that matters at Go/launch is that the hitter is fully coiled and still wringing the rag in their rear hip.

 

[Cannonball]

I hate that it is so easy for me to get tripped by semantics. It would probably be very helpful to build a common definition for things like "swing sequence", "launch sequence", "Go!" and sticky it to the forum.

What I mean to say is that in what I teach, at Go/Launch, the only thing to actively do is turn the barrel. This part of the swing has a critical timing element, an instantaneous "do". Coiling could have started earlier or later in the hitters individual process, but the only thing that matters at Go/launch is that the hitter is fully coiled and still wringing the rag in their rear hip.

This will never happen. It is important to some to control the discussion by controlling the language. I get confused all of the time. Then, I look at the various stuff submitted and think back to this or that guru and there you go. It all makes sense and yet another thing said back in the day is restated today in different language.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

I took this comment as a hip fire and then a hand fire. My apologies if I did not interpret it as you had intended.

I agree that learning to coil correctly is no easy task, but once you know how, it is very easy to repeat and since it is not in the swing sequence, it has no critical timing elements that make it difficult to enact every pitch.

I'm not an HI original so probably not who you are thinking of. It took me a few visits to TM to wrap my head around all this.

My apologies for my immediate knee-jerk reaction to how I read your reply, and for coming off like such a jerk in my over reactionary, inappropriate, and uncalled for response.

I understand how things can be unintentionally misinterpreted, as I've done it many times myself in the past, and appreciated you not taking my dumb comments, and escalating the situation. You were/are definitely the bigger person in the conversation, and I thank you for that. See, I did say that "I look forward to learning from you", and that I did...thank you for that.

I will say however, I believe that the rear hip is used in the timing of the swing, but I'll just leave it at that for now, as that's unrelated to my main reason for this reply...to thank you for your understanding, and deescalation of what could have been a discussion gone off the rails because of my late night tempestuous stupidity, when I should have been sound asleep instead.


Thanks for your reply,
MB

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

My apologies for my immediate knee-jerk reaction to how I read your reply, and for coming off like such a jerk in my over reactionary, inappropriate, and uncalled for response.

I understand how things can be unintentionally misinterpreted, as I've done it many times myself in the past, and appreciated you not taking my dumb comments, and escalating the situation. You were/are definitely the bigger person in the conversation, and I thank you for that. See, I did say that "I look forward to learning from you", and that I did...thank you for that.

I will say however, I believe that the rear hip is used in the timing of the swing, but I'll just leave it at that for now, as that's unrelated to my main reason for this reply...to thank you for your understanding, and deescalation of what could have been a discussion gone off the rails because of my late night tempestuous stupidity, when I should have been sound asleep instead.


Thanks for your reply,
MB

Spot on!

In my teaching it isn't just the rear hip, but the core and rear upper leg ... inclusive of the rear hip.

That said ... until the action of the main-engine is 'automatic', a developing hitter may want to think of timing with their core/rear-hip rather than their hands. This core/rear-hip action is in-front of the 'hands' in terms of sequence ... and needs to be ready/primed to support the 'hands'.

For many ... especially young developing hitters ... Time the ball with your core, not your hands, but the core.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

In my teaching it isn't just the rear hip, but the core and rear upper leg ... inclusive of the rear hip.

Agreed. I use the term "rear hip" in my teachings for ease of use, and simplification, with the understanding that the "rear hip" is simply a bony landmark incapable of moving on its own, and needs the other mentioned surrounding muscles, and structures to get it going.

That said ... until the action of the main-engine is 'automatic', a developing hitter may want to think of timing with their core/rear-hip rather than their hands. This core/rear-hip action is in-front of the 'hands' in terms of sequence ... and needs to be ready/primed to support the 'hands'.

Yes, to the point that I've even been know to tell a hitter, "Hit the ball with your rear hip". Which on the surface is admittedly odd hearing at first, and I've had players look at me like I've got a third eye in the middle of my head, but after a brief explanation similar to the above, they get the idea of (dare I say) finding initial direction with it, and then getting the already turning barrel pulled through with it.

For many ... especially young developing hitters ... Time the ball with your core, not your hands, but the core.

So yes, I use a very similar (same?) thought process with them, just a little lower area of focus that's worked well for me...but I'm not opposed to the other if it's working well for others.

As long as they get their lower half turning/leading the upper half regardless of the words needed to accomplish that, I think hitters will be well on their way to marked improvement in a surprisingly short period of time vs. many of the other swing instruction I've heard or been witness to over the years. JMO...OMMV.

 

[jryan15]

Good discussion guys and I agree on many points especially in that coiling requires focus on much more than the hip and is certainly not easy initially . The rear hip can move in the ways described above a couple different ways.

1. The core moves the hip to a location (most common)
2. The glutes can move the hip via extension and adding coil prior to extension will create both a rotation and a spatial movement

Do you see what I mean and do you teach one over the other?

FWIW I am very deliberate in teaching #2. In the past when I've given a hitter cues to direct their hip, I almost always got #1 type movement.

If we are getting too far off topic, let me know.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Yes, to the point that I've even been know to tell a hitter, "Hit the ball with your rear hip". Which on the surface is admittedly odd hearing at first, and I've had players look at me like I've got a third eye in the middle of my head, but after a brief explanation similar to the above, they get the idea of (dare I say) finding initial direction with it, and then getting the already turning barrel pulled through with it.

This here, from my perspective, is too important to go without a follow-up comment.

The way I teach it, it isn't just that the core/rear-hip setting "initial direction", but it is also largely involved with "final direction". Let me briefly attempt to explain.

During the initial "core/rear-hip" usage at swing launch, there is a 'stretch' felt along the front-side ... between the 'front-hip' and 'front-armpit'. If this feeling of 'stretch' is maintained until the barrel is released/worked down (hands stay up, bat-head is released/worked down) ... then the front-side ... or actually the core ... hips if you wish ... is largely involved in the setting of final direction.

From my perspective both engines ... the core/rear-hip engine and the forearms/hands engine are used in establishing 'direction'.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Good discussion guys and I agree on many points especially in that coiling requires focus on much more than the hip and is certainly not easy initially . The rear hip can move in the ways described above a couple different ways.

1. The core moves the hip to a location (most common)
2. The glutes can move the hip via extension and adding coil prior to extension will create both a rotation and a spatial movement

Do you see what I mean and do you teach one over the other?

FWIW I am very deliberate in teaching #2. In the past when I've given a hitter cues to direct their hip, I almost always got #1 type movement.

If we are getting too far off topic, let me know.

Jyran15, regarding your #1 and #2 ... it's #1+#2 for me ... as with Jim Dixon Sr, I include the upper rear leg (inclusive of the hip) into my description of the core and make the core the main-engine.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Jim Dixon Sr: Take off the shoulders and the arms, the neck, head, and the legs from the crotch down and call what's left the Torso. The Torso includes the back, sides, stomach, buttocks, chest, and upper thighs.

The torso is made up of hundreds of muscles. I find talking about individual muscles with a hitter often has them overthinking the action I am trying to get them to achieve ... and overthinking leads to a lack of fluid flow that I wish to see.

Jim Dixon described what he called the 'ready mode'.

Jim Dixon Sr: The Ready Mode gets all these muscles revved up

Jim Dixon Sr: In this mode the torso - the largest muscle mass in your body, provides the energy the Exceptional Player uses to throw 95 mph and hit 450' line drives.

At the time I first read Jim's description of the torso I was a bit dismissive. I thought he got it wrong. I continued to focus primarily on the hips. Over time I came to the understanding that I too needed to focus on more than just the hips, and I needed to include the core.

Perhaps I too should use the term 'torso' instead of 'core'. I have been using the words interchangeably with my hitters. On occasion I get a strange look from a hitter when I tell them I want the muscles in the upper rear leg included in what I refer to as the core-engine ... torso-engine.

 

[RichK]

I'm not a big core guy as a point of emphasis or action but truth is I DO focus on the idea of *activating* body parts -- both pre-activated and flow-into-activate -- including the thighs (upper rear leg), butt and core as a key part of taking slack out (usually first time young hitters have ever thought about the swing and their body in this way). So maybe I have more in common with the core guys then I thought