The hands - How high is too high?

[jbooth]

Hands, wrists and forearms....

Look at how long their top palm stays facing the pitcher. There is no bone movement of supination in the forearm, early.
It's interesting that you show Pujols. He demonstrated and stated on MLB Tonight once, that he tries to keep the barrel up as long as possible. If you watch his practice swing before the pitcher winds up, he goes through a motion reminding himself of that. He takes his hands toward the pitcher while holding the barrel above his hands.

Albert says he doesn't turn the barrel backward, Mike Epstein told me nobody does that. A friend of mine, who played MLB says they don't, Barry Bonds told Jennie Finch that he takes the barrel straight at the ball. He told her to get the top hand through, and the icing on the cake is when HOF'er Orlando Cepeda told me that that is crazy. He told me to not bother talking with people who believe that the barrel is twisted rearward. Yet, here I am doing it again. They hold the barrel up until the shoulders tilt and start to rotate, then they throw the barrel directly at the ball in a motion similar to pounding a nail with a hammer. Or, as Ted Williams said, "like swinging an axe." They don't twist the barrel backward.

Pujols' top hand is still facing forward after his elbow is touching his side. The barrel is still above his back shoulder. His radius bone has not supinated from neutral at that point, so where is this twisting force that you're talking about, happening?

 

[RayR]

Look at how long their top palm stays facing the pitcher. There is no bone movement of supination in the forearm, early.
It's interesting that you show Pujols. He demonstrated and stated on MLB Tonight once, that he tries to keep the barrel up as long as possible. If you watch his practice swing before the pitcher winds up, he goes through a motion reminding himself of that. He takes his hands toward the pitcher while holding the barrel above his hands.

Albert says he doesn't turn the barrel backward, Mike Epstein told me nobody does that. A friend of mine, who played MLB says they don't, and the icing on the cake is when HOF'er Orlando Cepeda told me that that is crazy. He told me to not bother talking with people who believe that. Yet, here I am doing it again. They hold the barrel up until the shoulders tilt and start to rotate, then they throw the barrel at the ball in a motion similar to pounding a nail with a hammer. Or, as Ted Williams said, "like swinging an axe." They don't twist the barrel backward.

Pujols' top hand is still facing forward after his elbow is touching his side. The barrel is still above his back shoulder. His radius bone has not supinated from neutral at that point, so where is this twisting force that you're talking about, happening?

Booth - not sure why you aren't getting this....if I ask you to turn the barrel in one direction (forward) wouldn't your hands/wrists first apply pressure in the opposite direction to create some momentum? Would you see forward barrel turning right away or would you see lag (in the context of a swing)? I have been over this many times....And so everyone who says they don't turn the barrel behind them is right of course....because the part they feel is the load....

The alternative to barrel turning is either dragging/pulling/sweeping or something being called see saw elbows....

 

[RayR]

And one more point for you to consider....every good hitter I have coached/trained has some version of wrist cock as part of their swing....the wrist cock eliminates barrel dumping and gets the barrel loaded and unloaded very quickly....barrel turning is just a term I use to avoid using too many words to describe this action...

 

[RayR]

None of the above are turning the barrel rearward from top hand force. You, Jack Mankin and Richard Schenk have completely mis-analyzed the kinesiology that is happening. The early blur and movement of the barrel is almost entirely caused by the shoulders tilting, not an action from the hands that takes the barrel toward the catcher.

You make very little sense with your discussion...shoulder tilting alone is causing this much barrel movement? We are back to same dumb argument that players just hold on and use big body parts to move the barrel....

 

[RayR]

More wicked shoulder tilt for you....

 

[RichK]

shoulder turn "blurring" the hands makes about as much sense (to me) as trying to launch the lower half by trying to rotate the hips "faster" or "harder" -- neither shoulders or hips can make the sudden, small radius move needed to power a good swing (in swings I experiment with)...per another thread going right now on this site on the best "un-teached" hitting concepts, I think the idea of pivot points, along with creating and using stretch, make a ton of sense to me and changed how I thought about the swing...maybe they are more conceptual than accurate kinesiology, don't know don't care....

 

[jbooth]

You make very little sense with your discussion...shoulder tilting alone is causing this much barrel movement? We are back to same dumb argument that players just hold on and use big body parts to move the barrel....

No, they don't just hold on and turn. The arms and hands do get used. Just not the way you think. They throw the barrel after shoulder tilt, by executing ulnar deviation with both hands. Why can't you believe what they say? Especially when you can see it in video. They ALL talk about lagging the barrel and throwing it down at the ball. NONE say anything about whirling it around at the ball.

 

[RayR]

No, they don't just hold on and turn. The arms and hands do get used. Just not the way you think. They throw the barrel after shoulder tilt, by executing ulnar deviation with both hands. Why can't you believe what they say? Especially when you can see it in video. They ALL talk about lagging the barrel and throwing it down at the ball. NONE say anything about whirling it around at the ball.

I can't understand that you can't understand that lagging is an effect - not a cause...you get lag from transitioning to throw the barrel...it starts early....

 

[softballphreak]

MTS, are you saying that the hands/wrists/forearms torque the bat barrel from the very start?

jbooth, are you saying that the bat barrel is initially pulled and then thrown after breaking inertia?

 

[jbooth]

MTS, are you saying that the hands/wrists/forearms torque the bat barrel from the very start?

jbooth, are you saying that the bat barrel is initially pulled and then thrown after breaking inertia?

You do not push or pull the bat with the arms. The torso rotation breaks inertia. The elbow movement sets the bat in position to be thrown, and then the forearms/wrists throw the barrel.

The position below is where the throw starts, and the blur and movement of the barrel to its position below, did not happen from a forearm twist to make the barrel go toward the catcher.