Teaching the bent-fingered rise and the up-and-in

[Perfect Circle]

She then is probably one of 3 pitchers in the world who throw this pitch.

Not sure about the world, but she is there because she is very unique to the others... as is the other 3 girls that pitch. HC wants each pitcher to be different. The Two that are similar, he spaces them apart from each other.

That pitch dances, just like How said. Even has a mind of its own. If your mechanics are sound. DD throws it with the intention of it going straight across the plate... give or take the wind conditions, it does something different just about every time. It's her CU....But she takes nothing off of it at all. Its the pitch that has them jumping out of the box if it starts inside. Now you know that's not every girl... but all we need is Their Coach to yell at one of them to not jump out, and the rest start freezing up...She throws it hard,and straight, knowing if it breaks inside, its not goin to hit them. We also are very alert as to the weather now...and whether we are on a Pitchers or Hitters Diamond. So we never warm up in the same place. We match the conditions of the diamond, and go right to that pitch to see what the Good Lord is giving us that day.

EP:

Sorry to get off topic, but she is just 10u...little early for the rise, though she does have one, just not the bent finger yet... cause she is just throwing the 11" I think she'll need to use the bigger ball to get the action... not the speed :{))

 

[slingnit]

Not sure about the world, but she is there because she is very unique to the others... as is the other 3 girls that pitch. HC wants each pitcher to be different. The Two that are similar, he spaces them apart from each other.

That pitch dances, just like How said. Even has a mind of its own. If your mechanics are sound. DD throws it with the intention of it going straight across the plate... give or take the wind conditions, it does something different just about every time. It's her CU....But she takes nothing off of it at all. Its the pitch that has them jumping out of the box if it starts inside. Now you know that's not every girl... but all we need is Their Coach to yell at one of them to not jump out, and the rest start freezing up... She throws it hard,and straight, knowing if it breaks inside, its not goin to hit them. We also are very alert as to the weather now...and whether we are on a Pitchers or Hitters Diamond. So we never warm up in the same place. We match the conditions of the diamond, and go right to that pitch to see what the Good Lord is giving us that day.

EP:

Sorry to get off topic, but she is just 10u...little early for the rise, though she does have one, just not the bent finger yet... cause she is just throwing the 11" I think she'll need to use the bigger ball to get the action... not the speed :{))

Not sure I would consider that a change.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Not sure I would consider that a change.

Well the first thing you want to teach is every pitch looks the same. I didn't say it was a change, I said "It's her Change Up" I told her it was a change up. She is working on a back flip... but I would only have her throw it in warm ups between innings, just to let the ump see it, thats all. Then have her EXAGGERATE a slow down, but is really a slingshot... The exact opposite of the CU fake out...

EP:

I got that from Hal's book too!!!

 

[halskinner]

Not sure I would consider that a change.

How do you define a 'change up??? My book and I have always taught that any pitch that is delivered at a different rate of speed than what the overall motions would lead a batter to expect is a change up.. Most believe that a change up is limited to a fast arm circle and slow delivery. I have NEVER put llimitations like that on pitchers.

I make sure they get part of my pitching philosophy into their heads. Things like "For a pitcher to be successful they must be smarter at pitching the ball than the batter is at hitting the ball" and "With every pitch you throw, you should be setting the batter up for the next or this is the pitch the last one set them up for".

Here is a quick example of how that plays out. You have 1 ball and 2 strikes on a batter and no base runners. You show that batter a wind up that is noticeably slower than normal and you deliver a pitch that hits the ground 6 feet in front of the plate for a ball. Everyone is chuckling at that 'Boo-boo'. Next pitch, you give that same slower wind up but deliver a very fast strike as the batter just stands there in disbelief, and then walks back to the dugout.

Slow arm speed and a fast delivery, seems to have that same effect as a fast arm speed with a slower delivery.

Thats called tactical pitching.

 

[Perfect Circle]

How do you define a 'change up??? My book and I have always taught that any pitch that is delivered at a different rate of speed than what the overall motions would lead a batter to expect. Most believe that a change up is limited to a fast arm circle and slow delivery. I have NEVER put llimitations like that on pitchers.

Thats what I knew from reading your book Hal :{))

By her bending her fingers the ball goes back into her palm... I know that probably slows it a couple 3 mph. But she throws it the same as all the rest. That's why I told her it was "Her CU"...Sometimes it does go slower than you would think, but then it also bites and cuts faster sometimes too...(all in the wind) The worst part was getting her to stay ready in case they did hit it back... she was always so excited to see what the ball was going to do, and she just got used to celebrating kinda to much ahead of time. Also... the umps love it !

 

[slingnit]

How do you define a 'change up??? My book and I have always taught that any pitch that is delivered at a different rate of speed than what the overall motions would lead a batter to expect is a change up.. Most believe that a change up is limited to a fast arm circle and slow delivery. I have NEVER put llimitations like that on pitchers.

I make sure they get part of my pitching philosophy into their heads. Things like "For a pitcher to be successful they must be smarter at pitching the ball than the batter is at hitting the ball" and "With every pitch you throw, you should be setting the batter up for the next or this is the pitch the last one set them up for".

Here is a quick example of how that plays out. You have 1 ball and 2 strikes on a batter and no base runners. You show that batter a wind up that is noticeably slower than normal and you deliver a pitch that hits the ground 6 feet in front of the plate for a ball. Everyone is chuckling at that 'Boo-boo'. Next pitch, you give that same slower wind up but deliver a very fast strike as the batter just stands there in disbelief, and then walks back to the dugout.

Slow arm speed and a fast delivery, seems to have that same effect as a fast arm speed with a slower delivery.

Thats called tactical pitching.

Well Hal, I love a good debate! First, I have never and have no intention of reading your book. But your definition of a change up and how the vast majority of the softball/baseball world define a change up are obviously different. But there are so many ways I disagree with you on this.

1. Gimmick pitches like you are describing only work in Bull Durham and on 10 year olds.

2. A true change up is thrown from the same wind up, same drive, same arm speed, and from grip/release you decrease the velocity in order to confuse the batter. Not just my opinion but 99.9% of all would agree.

3. When timing is such an important part of being a successful pitcher why would you ask them to change wind up speeds from pitch to pitch? Especially in kids. Most are doing well to throw consistent strikes, but you want them to dump one pitch and then throw a strike the next time. Not to mention that many 10-12 yr olds dump pitches by accident let alone on purpose. I'm pretty sure not too many chuckles from the crowd when a 10 yr old dumps a pitch.

4. To think the second 10 yr old that sees this wind up is going to remember what happened to the first 10 yr old? You are giving the kids way too much credit for paying attention to the game.

5. And to think 10 and 12 year olds understand "tactical pitching" on the level you are explaining? Come on, I know there is the exception but that would be the same as a 10 yr old lining up, reading the Steeler's defense, and calling an audible correctly.

6. If these tactics were so successful why don't we see them on the college level.

I'm sure this could or has worked before but once it has been seen it no longer tactical. It is now a tell. Unless you are going to successfully throw multiple pitches from this wind up it is a gimmick. Once and done! Even your defender, Perfect Circle, disagrees with you. He stated "Well the first thing you want to teach is every pitch looks the same". That is nowhere close to what you are describing. I think you are way overthinking this, YOUR MIND IS YOUR WORST ENEMY!

 

[halskinner]

Had a lecture from an FBI guy with a PhD in psychology. First thing he made a big point to tell us was this; And I quote, "Those of lesser intelligence will ALWAYS attack what they do not know or do not understand. ALWAYS."



I always assumed these young ladies were highly intelligent. A handful did prove that assumption in error. In the post you are attacking, I just gave a very valuable piece of information. Sorry you dont want to see it that way.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

Had a lecture from an FBI guy with a PhD in psychology. First thing he made a big point to tell us was this; And I quote, "Those of lesser intelligence will ALWAYS attack what they do not know or do not understand. ALWAYS."

What? They had problems with the liberal media in those days too? Just kidding, don't ban me!!

 

[slingnit]

Had a lecture from an FBI guy with a PhD in psychology. First thing he made a big point to tell us was this; And I quote, "Those of lesser intelligence will ALWAYS attack what they do not know or do not understand. ALWAYS."



I always assumed these young ladies were highly intelligent. A handful did prove that assumption in error. In the post you are attacking, I just gave a very valuable piece of information. Sorry you dont want to see it that way.

Attacking? WOW, a little thin skinned? This is just good ole debating. The fact that I disagree has nothing to do with me not understanding. The fact that I disagree with you may frustrate you but I did not attack. I NEVER questioned anyone's intelligence, did I? I did question there attention span and the fact that most young men/women do not observe, interpret, and react to situations as fast as you believe. And all that you have said is opinion, it is not fact. Saying you gave me valuable information is your opinion. I do not agree, so it holds no value to me. Perfectcircle may find it helpful, so it is valuable to him/her. But the fact is, I asked some valid questions and you did not address any of them. Last of all Hitler and Mussolini were questioned and attacked because their tactics/beliefs were not understood but I would not call those that opposed them to be of lesser intelligence. Just saying

 

[GOINGDEEP]

Eephus pitch, only two MLB hitters to go yard on it.