Swing down

[Eric F]

Well hopefully we can get to the bottom of what a push is

It gets complicated because multiple muscles are involved with most movements, and muscles can only actively contract.

In reference to the Lorenz tee swing, I see the hands not connected with the turn of the torso, and getting well ahead of torso rotation. This is part of what I see as a "push" in a swing. Looking at the rear leg-hip-torso alignment, the rear knee is behind and "pushing" the hip, which is behind and "pushing" the torso. That knee-hip-torso alignment is quite a lot different in the game swing. IMO. YMMV.

It's certainly possible that the tee swing is a specific drill that is helpful to the cocktail of feels that works for her. Personally, I can only see prescribing that movement to a hitter to address an issue specific to that hitter's individual needs.

 

[fanboi22]

It gets complicated because multiple muscles are involved with most movements, and muscles can only actively contract.

In reference to the Lorenz tee swing, I see the hands not connected with the turn of the torso, and getting well ahead of torso rotation. This is part of what I see as a "push" in a swing. Looking at the rear leg-hip-torso alignment, the rear knee is behind and "pushing" the hip, which is behind and "pushing" the torso. That knee-hip-torso alignment is quite a lot different in the game swing. IMO. YMMV.

It's certainly possible that the tee swing is a specific drill that is helpful to the cocktail of feels that works for her. Personally, I can only see prescribing that movement to a hitter to address an issue specific to that hitter's individual needs.

I like the comment on the torso and hands not being connected. I struggle a bit with any comments on hand set then that don’t address this. The farther back the handset the faster it has to outpace the torso to get by and the more the swing looks pushy. And at that point I don’t feel muscles can actually have any value and don’t actually ‘push’. Kinda like wrist flick in pitching or throwing. Doesn’t add speed.

As far as the knee I am of the opinion that the lower half only leverages and doesn’t ‘push’ anything. The knee being behind IMO is more a function of posture and level of squish the bug. I try to have add do more Sierra Romero and anchor the rear leg. But even if not anchored I don’t believe it pushes anything. Hence the reason the leg is weightless after swing initiation. Maybe? Who knows.

 

[jdint]

I thought a push was when you used your arms to push the knob forward and not synced up with the back shoulder. I don't see a push in the Yelich .gif. I do see a barrel turning behind him however. Granted not to the extreme Anotonell

Well hopefully we can get to the bottom of what a push is


So I see the change in barrel direction as a pulling "down to" What do you see is pushing ?

No push. I see the barrel turning behind the hitter through a contraction of the obliques and rear lat. which in turn, causes what I would describe as a shoulder rotation around the spine. I personally don't see anything I would describe as "pull down". The way I see it, is best shown by the yellow line. If he was pulling down the line be closer to vertical than arcing behind him.

 

[fanboi22]

I thought a push was when you used your arms to push the knob forward and not synced up with the back shoulder. I don't see a push in the Yelich .gif. I do see a barrel turning behind him however. Granted not to the extreme Anotonell

No push. I see the barrel turning behind the hitter through a contraction of the obliques and rear lat. which in turn, causes what I would describe as a shoulder rotation around the spine. I personally don't see anything I would describe as "pull down". The way I see it, is best shown by the yellow line. If he was pulling down the line be closer to vertical than arcing behind him.

I suppose I could argue the top hand is pushing and bottom is pulling?

 

[Eric F]

I like the comment on the torso and hands not being connected. I struggle a bit with any comments on hand set then that don’t address this. The farther back the handset the faster it has to outpace the torso to get by and the more the swing looks pushy. And at that point I don’t feel muscles can actually have any value and don’t actually ‘push’. Kinda like wrist flick in pitching or throwing. Doesn’t add speed.

As far as the knee I am of the opinion that the lower half only leverages and doesn’t ‘push’ anything. The knee being behind IMO is more a function of posture and level of squish the bug. I try to have add do more Sierra Romero and anchor the rear leg. But even if not anchored I don’t believe it pushes anything. Hence the reason the leg is weightless after swing initiation. Maybe? Who knows.

Understanding the function of a "pulling" rear leg is a fairly recent thing for me, and has been instrumental in putting the pieces together in my DD's swing. @Mike-Coach Q was a big part of helping me understand it, and my DD implement it.

 

[Work=wins]

 

[fanboi22]

I thought a push was when you used your arms to push the knob forward and not synced up with the back shoulder. I don't see a push in the Yelich .gif. I do see a barrel turning behind him however. Granted not to the extreme Anotonell

No push. I see the barrel turning behind the hitter through a contraction of the obliques and rear lat. which in turn, causes what I would describe as a shoulder rotation around the spine. I personally don't see anything I would describe as "pull down". The way I see it, is best shown by the yellow line. If he was pulling down the line be closer to vertical than arcing behind him.

I also think the barrel will always ‘turn’ any time it is not in line with the target. If the bat is wrapped around the head and you pull the handle forward the barrel will come in line with the motion. I don’t know the correct physics terms but think of pulling a squirrly rope on the ground and when u pull it the rope will fall in line behind u. Same barrel action.

But the barrel will turn whether pushed or pulled.

 

[efastball]

So... Drag
View attachment 22762

Yes, here he has some slight bat drag (hands behind the back elbow). This is an image from a more direct angle.


Then, unlike every other amateur, and like a few pros, he manages in a couple of slomo frames to quickly get his hands ahead. This may have something to do with the momentum generated by his high initial hand placement (like Bryce Harper), plus the fact that he pulled his hands much closer to his armpit, which helped the leverage and angular momentum issues.

 

[fanboi22]

Yes, he has some bat drag. This is an image from a more direct angle.
View attachment 22767

Then, unlike every other amateur, and like a few pros, he manages in a couple of slomo frames to quickly get his hands ahead. This may have something to do with the momentum generated by his high initial hand movement.
View attachment 22768

If you can visualize pulling his hands in a bit closer to the shoulder do you still think it’s drag? In my mind if I see his elbow angle closed and hands closer to shoulder he isn’t close to dragging. But again that’s me.

 

[efastball]

If you can visualize pulling his hands in a bit closer to the shoulder do you still think it’s drag? In my mind if I see his elbow angle closed and hands closer to shoulder he isn’t close to dragging. But again that’s me.

So, you mean if his hands were more forward??

Try this. Pull your arm back like you are going to punch me (not hard to imagine) Where is your hand?

Now do it, and keep your hand behind your elbow. Does that feel strong or leveraged to you?