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rotational vs. combinational approach

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Sep 11, 2008
74
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caifornia
can anyone tell me where i can find a good summary that discusses the pros and cons and differences between rotational hitting and tom emanski's "major league swing" (combinational approach of rotational into linear, or some might say linear into rotational)?

also, i know little about rotational mechanics, tho i have watched englishbey's introductory dvd. am i correct in saying that mike epstein and steve englishbey are the leaders of the rotational method? and players who use this are barry bonds, alfonso soriano, pete rose, and johnny bench? did i get the names wrong?

also, for the antiquated strictly linear method, is the leader charlie lau? and the players who use this include george brett?

i am trying to decide which approach is right for me. thanks!

my coach says roatational hitters have more power but since they rotate quickly thru the hitting zone, they have less chance at making contact. whereas combinational hitters have more chance of making contact since they go linear thru the swing plane and extend as far as possible. but they lose a little power that way. is this right? i want to study the two methods. i found englishbey's dvd not that clear about exactly what he wanted us to do and how this differs from more traditional methods.
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
2012-

The terms linear and rotational are so variably defined that they have little meaning when trying to communicate about swing patterns.

2 places you might look for definitions are Mankin at batspeed.com where he defines rotational as a handpath shape that stays connected so the uncoiling of the torso accelerates the bat from launch to contact without disconnecting before contact (disconnection greatly messes up timing) and Epstein's info where he defines things more in terms of weight shift, see many articles at:

Hitting Articles

More generally I think it is most common to think of the MLB swing pattern as a combo of starting linear and finishing rotational as described by Slaught in his rightview swing model, but more of Mankin's emphasis should remain on not disconnecting prior to contact/torso continuing to turn until near contact/bat just getting lined up with lead forearm at contact (double pendulum mechanics/"law of the flail").

The most complex area is how the early linear phase influences "connection" so it is optimal in allowing adjustment and quick acceleration without deceleration prior to contact.
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
2012-

with regard to Englishbey and other swing authorities, the Englishbey swing is based on the "PCRW" approach of Nyman as explained in Nyman's ebooks from setpro.com.

This approach can be considered "rotational", BUT it is an entirely different swing pattern from the one used in MLB and described by Slaught and Epstein Yeager and Mankin and others.

There have been many discussions of this here and elsewhere. One KEY difference is that the MLB pattern preparation/loading IS VERY SIMILAR to the loading pattern for overhand throw as stressed by Yeager and Dixon and Slaught/Candre/Enquist, for example.

There is no such carryover/similarity between throwing and swinging in the Nyman/Englishbey pattern.

Here are some clips discussing the HUGE difference in "separation" and sequencing between these two rotational patterns you can see if you sign up at H-I.com:

Teacherman's HittingIllustrated.com


In the MLB pattern the hands load back and stay back/resist more as the hips open to create a quicker swing that starts further back behind the hitter allowing longer read time and better adjustment for square/well timed contact.

This MLB pattern is rare in fastpitch where the bats are lighter and the sweetspot bigger and the closing speed slower and the overhand throwing ability less developed and the coaching experience (of the look and feel of thre MLB patern) less.

Cochran at ASU is an example of MLB swing in fastpitch and has a history of Ted Williams/baseball type instruction for example.
 
Sep 11, 2008
74
0
caifornia
2012-

This MLB pattern is rare in fastpitch where the bats are lighter and the sweetspot bigger and the closing speed slower and the overhand throwing ability less developed and the coaching experience (of the look and feel of thre MLB patern) less.

Cochran at ASU is an example of MLB swing in fastpitch and has a history of Ted Williams/baseball type instruction for example.
Your responses are very professorial Coach Guerry, which is a good thing in my eyes! I have a ton of reading to do now about this, thanks to your many links. I only wish i could print out the Epstein articles, but the security setting won't allow this. The problem is i have so much other school work to do I am having trouble keeping up with everything. I usually do some reading at night before bed. I also have video review to do of my lessons. I make adjustments after every lesson/practice. I am also glad I am not the only one in softball doing the MLB swing. As i mentioned before, my hitting coach is a former pro player and teaches mainly boys, so that is what I am being taught. Now I know why my approach differs sometimes from what the college coaches at the clinics I have been to have taught me.

One thing I remember Coach Candrea telling me is the baseball and softball swings are identical. So if that is true, then one should be able to apply the MLB swing from baseball and use it in softball.
 

Cannonball

Ex "Expert"
Feb 25, 2009
3,902
63
Another good "separation" in the MLB pattern thread at a "free" site that is now moderated by Daryl/B25/cannonball, not to be confused with "loose cannon" who is teacherman from the H-I site:

Separation Separated The High Level Swing From The Imposters - Topic Powered by Eve For Enterprise
Class, you are wise to ask about several influences. I'd respect Tom's suggestions. I disagree with some of them. That's fine, I'm not the one looking. I'd talk to Ssarge and BoardMember. I'd certainly do a read of Mankin, Baseball Fever (Coaching 101) etc. I'd check out the free portion of Englishbey's site. In making sure that you have looked at all of the options, you will find something that clicks for you. That's the main key to all of this. Hitting is not one size fits all. Tom constantly says that the philosophy of Nyman and Englishbey do not fit the MLB swing. Please note that that is his opinion and that the PCR portion of that description refers to measurements of major league players in posture, connection and rotation. Regardless, cues or drills or ... have to make sense to you.

FYI, I have Epstein's stuff, albeit the old video, Hudgens, and a few other videos I used for my baseball program. I have a daughter who is 15 and much like you. She really tries hard to understand exactly what she is doing. We use Englishbey's stuff the most in our hitting sessions. I also coached a team that won an ASA Northern National Title using the same stuff. Again, none of that matters to you since you need something that turns that lightbulb on for you. Good Luck.

Class, Tom and I butt heads a lot. However, I know we both want what is best for you. Take all of these discussions as food for thought then follow your heart.
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
Good summary by cannonball.

Wellphyt has a lot of Williams/Epstein experience if this interests you.

The PCR swing lacks the "early batspeed" and has a different kind of "connection" and "separation" from the MLB pattern which the threads I linked illustrate nicely.

I recommend you try the MLB pattern IF you have good overhand throw mechanics, or as Candrea says, if you can throw, you can hit.

If not, the PCR swing is what Candrea calls the "gate swing" and is a reasonable alternative given the hot bats, although he prefers the MLB pattern.

Kids can and do thrive in college fastpitch with a PCR swing as with sarge's daughter for example.
 
Jan 14, 2009
1,591
0
Atlanta, Georgia
2012 - It's important to understand that nobody is saying that a player can't hit using any of the methods being discussed. You can hit with any of these methods, including linear. The question is which of these methods will allow a player to truly hit their potential.

I have Epstein's material and have done sufficient research into what Englishbey teaches to say that they teach different patterns. If you want to know what Epstein teaches go to his website and check out video clips of some of his students. Just be sure to note how much instruction a particular student has had and where the student has received his instruction. To his credit, Epstein puts up video clips of students that have been to his three day camp (9 hours of instruction), seven day camp, as well as students that have been taught by instructors other than himself, using his material.

When evaluating Englishbey, I would ignore the term PCR. PCR is a clever acronym that stands for Posture, Connection, Rotation. The acronym is a catch all marketing term that applies to all MLB players and is nothing new. IMO the best way to evaluate Englishbey is to study his swing as well as the swing of players that are using or have used his methods. You will have to dig to find them as they are not readily available, but they are out there. The internet is a big place.
 

Cannonball

Ex "Expert"
Feb 25, 2009
3,902
63
When evaluating Englishbey, I would ignore the term PCR. PCR is a clever acronym that stands for Posture, Connection, Rotation. The acronym is a catch all marketing term that applies to all MLB players and is nothing new. IMO the best way to evaluate Englishbey is to study his swing as well as the swing of players that are using or have used his methods. You will have to dig to find them as they are not readily available, but they are out there. The internet is a big place.
It is tiresome and bothersome to have to continually comment on these assertions. The acronym PCR is not a technique but rather a measurement. It is also not a scam as Wellphyt suggest. Like any other measurement, the creation of a methodology is beneficial to improvement or the lack thereof. Some might disagree with these methodologies. Most are backed by the most recent scientific literature. Most of these methodologies are created by a trainer who played professional ball. There are literally now hundreds of swings for all kinds of reasons on that site. Some or examples of overload. Some underload. Some are examples of doing drills wrong and so, here is what you look like if you haven't grasped this or that concept correctly. I'd point out that there are no Englishbey Hitters out there. There are hitters that have used his site as a resource to improve their swing based upon these measurements and drills specific to that improvement. Naturally, those drills are contained on the private portion of his site. I'd suggest that neither Wellphyt nor Tom have been on the private portion of that site in the last few years. Of course, I could be wrong. BTW, I'm not trying to sell you on anything and am just setting the record straight as to whether PCR is simply a scam. My child has had success. Ssarge's child has had success. I have baseball players playing at universities all over this country and at every level. I've done this for a few decades. Well, I have to cut this off. Time for practice.

Again, I suggest that you read and/or study all of the suggestions and find the right fit for you. That is what we did. I'm not saying that what clicked for us will for you. I am saying that everyone involved in this thread has an agenda. Keep that in mind when dealing with any hitting information.
 
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