rotational vs. combinational approach

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May 7, 2008
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San Rafael, Ca
mark -

thanks very much for responding to many questions. I'm sure slapper will answer yours when he has a chance.

we've been over this ground many times, but without specifics of how you think Englishbey is being misrepresented, so let me know more specifics when you can.

You repeated the old one above about "no arm action in epstein" which I have responded to over and over.

part of the MLB pattern is to learn the stretch and fire/early batspeed/late adjustment swing pattern that allows the hands to stay back well so you can wait as long as possible before committing. This pattern is entirely diferent from anything that is possible following the PCR blueprint.

Epsetin drills start by teaching the stretch/bodty torque while ensuring connection by bat on deltoid, but then you need good upper body arm action that enhances connection for stretch and fire when you go hands free.

The arm action described by Epstein adequately addresses the core/universal moves which is what Epstein focusses on as well described above by wellphyt. we have discussed this before.

the way the upper body/GO move is described at H-I is the combination of forearm swivel and elbow rotation and shoulder tilt which is exactly what Epstein describes as scoop sand with top hand/get hands flat ASAP, keep spacing between elbows as front elbow works up when back elbow slots, and tilt shoulders.

Epstein DOES have less upper body emphasis than I like. I think the upper body controls the lower and agree largely with mankin here, seef or example this recent batspeed post/repost of old thread:

Bat Speed -- Baseball Hitting Forum

mankin: "I have found that if a student has the correct mental image of how to correctly initiate the acceleration of the bat head, the mind will develop a sound lower-body program to accomplish it."

here is another Epstein instructor who explains how the weight shift in epstein drils vs live works as well:

Baseball Fever - View Single Post - epstein complimentary issue
 
Jan 14, 2009
1,591
0
Atlanta, Georgia
As to the ml pattern of your DD who moves the lower body like a ML hitter. That's a big check to write for your DD to cash. I'd stay a little calmer and just be happy she's better.

Sorry to get excited about finding the answer to something I have been trying to figure out for about a year now. As a point of clarification, I am not saying my daughter hits like a ML hitter. What I was trying to say is that she is starting to understand/feel/mimick (pick a word) the "pattern". We still have a lot of work to do.
 
Mar 19, 2009
56
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Yeah I did a lot of that back in the day. Best I knew at the time. Sorry.

That is ok, I have enjoyed the journey. It has ruined me though, at an indoor facility the other night I watched the hitting instructor just flat rob the parents of their money. It was so bad Jacey wanted to go to the store to get a drink, when we got in the car she looked at me and said" you needed to get out of there". The instruction was so bad my 17yr old knew it!
 
Jan 14, 2009
1,591
0
Atlanta, Georgia
Originally posted by Mark H:
Mike shovels a whole lot into that style folder doesn't he.

Interesting comment Mark. I'm curious, when you teach front hip cock, do you teach Soriano's hip cock where he picks his front leg way off the ground and then strides, or do you teach Bonds' hip cock where he basically just strides, or do you teach Chipper's hip cock where he picks up his front foot, brings it back towards his back foot, touches his toe and then strides, or do you teach Pujols' hip cock where he bascially just gets on his front toe and turns in his front knee...or, or, or...?

Also, I would be interested to know which upper body loading style you teach. Do you teach the Bonds'/Williams'
style where the hands drop below the back arm pit as the front hip cocks and then work back and up during the stride, or do you teach Pujols' loading style where he starts with his hands up high, or do you teach the Julio Franco style where he points his bat over his head towards the pitcher,...or, or, or...?

Originally posted by Mark H:
Reminds me of when I asked him in person how kids should transition the bat off the deltoid. He looked thoughtful for a moment and said "Some never do". I thought that was a little stunning.

You mean stunning like Pete Rose or Kelly Johnson (of the Braves)? Chipper from the right side tends to keep his bat pretty close to the deltoid. As you know Epstein says in his material that where the hitter holds their hands is a matter of personal style, and as long as they can get the hands correctly repositioned in the launch position on-time then he doesn't care where they hold their hands. Some students no doubt like the bat on the deltoid and adopt it as their style. Even with the bat on the deltoid, the rear elbow will move up and away from the body as the front shoulder turns down and in.

Btw, in the Katie Cochran clip check out the position of the bat in relationship to her deltoid at toe touch.
 
Mar 19, 2009
56
0
Btw, in the Katie Cochran clip check out the position of the bat in relationship to her deltoid at toe touch.

You should really head over to ultimate college softball and look up prouddad.
He will probably be more then happy to talk hitting with you.

If I remember correctly, Mike touted that ULL coach Lotief had bought his material, but Lotief said he studied lots of material. I noticed Holly Tankersley on the website, I think she played for the Beaumont Blast in club ball. I remember the head coach of the Blast starting with Epstein, then moving over to Englishbey
 
May 27, 2008
106
0
Indiana
Wellphyt,

Don't let Mark bring you down. I think it's great to hear about your daughter's hitting progress...but don't get too excited about it now, ya hear!? :D

I know Coach Lotief well - a great guy and a great coach. To my knowledge, he has his own hitting system and obviously it works well for him. Trying to imply an Englishbey connection to Lotief's teaching would be about as far off the mark as you can get.

So Mark, I'm waiting on your description of momentum creation and transfer. I think it would add a lot to the discusion, especially for those new to the journey. Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Mike
 
Jan 14, 2009
1,591
0
Atlanta, Georgia
Don't let Mark bring you down. I think it's great to hear about your daughter's hitting progress...but don't get too excited about it now, ya hear!?

Thanks Slapper. I'm having fun here. I really enjoy talking hitting and I like my ideas on hitting to be challenged because it helps me learn. I don't ever feel threatened.

One of the advantages I believe I have is that I'm not part of the guru wars. Didn't even know about them until I came here several weeks ago. So I go anywhere and everywhere in search of the truth. When I look at Katie's swing (see link below) it just reaffirms what I'm attempting to teach my daughter.

http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com/Portals/0/images/Clips/Cochran_Katie_1.wmv
 
Jan 14, 2009
1,591
0
Atlanta, Georgia
Originally posted by Mark H:
Easy there on the comparisons. I wouldn't go that far. So where is the before clip and what do you think of Amanda's clip?

Mark, sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I'll leave it up to others to decide what you may or may not be trying to imply by asking about a before clip of the Fleck kid. It appears the kid's overly excited dad sent the clip into Epstein. :D

IMO Amanda's swing is much improved over her before swing. Her before swing looks more like a golf swing than a softball swing. Overall, I would say she did well during her seven days of instruction.

I really like Amanda's upper body as her hands are following her rotating body, per Ted Williams (hands inside the ball). Her back elbow is nicely slotted and she maintains the box until contact. Using your terms Mark, I would like to see her get off the "merry-go-round" sooner, but I've seen ML hitters do the same on certain pitches. Based on personal recent experience, timing these wiffle ball
machines can be a challenge.

The no-stride style she is using is not one I would think to use. I like the fact that she gets seperation as she shifts her weight forward, however there is little to no weight shift forward during the actual swing. If you don't go back to go forward, it's difficult if not impossible to generate forward weight shift during the swing without getting over your front leg and looking like your golfing. Mankin is/was doing some reseach in the area of weight shift/momentum and whether or not it actually makes a difference in the swing. This is something I am very curious about and currently researching.

The clip of the kid under the Fleck clip is also doing a no- stride and is getting a better weight shift forward during his swing than what Amanda does.

I'm not an expert on the no-stride style. Maybe someone else can add to what I've already said.
 
May 12, 2008
2,214
0
That is ok, I have enjoyed the journey. It has ruined me though, at an indoor facility the other night I watched the hitting instructor just flat rob the parents of their money. It was so bad Jacey wanted to go to the store to get a drink, when we got in the car she looked at me and said" you needed to get out of there". The instruction was so bad my 17yr old knew it!


The kid becoming their own coach-that's the end goal. :) I know what you mean. It's hard to keep your mouth shut sometimes. Someone taking money for teaching something that everyone on here would agree is obviously not in line with what elite hitters do is inexcusable in this day and age of easy access to video.
 
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