rotational vs. combinational approach

[Mark H]

mark -

thanks very much for responding to many questions. I'm sure slapper will answer yours when he has a chance.

we've been over this ground many times, but without specifics of how you think Englishbey is being misrepresented, so let me know more specifics when you can.

You tire me Tom. Doesn't really matter. If you get talked into a corner you just head off in another direction with one of your long epistles and standard verbiage but I'll try again one of these days.

You repeated the old one above about "no arm action in epstein" which I have responded to over and over.

part of the MLB pattern is to learn the stretch and fire/early batspeed/late adjustment swing pattern that allows the hands to stay back well so you can wait as long as possible before committing. This pattern is entirely diferent from anything that is possible following the PCR blueprint.

Stretch and fire...as if Steve didn't teach loading. The whole paragraph is merely a gratuitous assertion which I can therefore answer with another gratuitous assertion. You're wrong.

Epsetin drills start by teaching the stretch/bodty torque while ensuring connection by bat on deltoid, but then you need good upper body arm action that enhances connection for stretch and fire when you go hands free.

Do you remember what I've said Mike told me when I asked him how to transition off the deltoid?

You need good upper body arm action? Well I think there's something Obama and Newt could agree on. I mean who wants bad arm action right? What arm action? ------- use the hitters on his website ---they all have the hands down and mashed up against their side/bat up /elbows down with zero loading and in his book he warns against cocking the bat. How does that work with tipping?

The arm action described by Epstein adequately addresses the core/universal moves which is what Epstein focusses on as well described above by wellphyt. we have discussed this before.

the way the upper body/GO move is described at H-I is the combination of forearm swivel and elbow rotation and shoulder tilt which is exactly what Epstein describes as scoop sand with top hand/get hands flat ASAP, keep spacing between elbows as front elbow works up when back elbow slots, and tilt shoulders.

Epstein is the same as HI? I'm sure Epstein is thrilled. And Right View fits into the same mold too even though Don and Mike both think the other is very very wrong? Personally I can recommend Right View with just a few reservations. I'd have to side with Don Slaught next time he debates Mike.

Epstein DOES have less upper body emphasis than I like.

Understatement of the week award.

I think the upper body controls the lower and agree largely with mankin here, seef or example this recent batspeed post/repost of old thread:

Bat Speed -- Baseball Hitting Forum[/url

I think the brain controls the whole body. If focusing on the hands gets your hitters, if you had any, to where you want to get them, fine but the hands control nothing but that which the brain tells them to grip. As to Mankin's article, it's not too bad till he starts talking about tht. I suggest Boardmember had it right on baseball fever when he described the restraining torques necessary for stability and control of the bat as rotation starts. If this is the rearward pull of the top hand during rotation Mankin talks about, fine, but it's a goofy way to characterize it fraught with opportunities for misunderstanding.

mankin: "I have found that if a student has the correct mental image of how to correctly initiate the acceleration of the bat head, the mind will develop a sound lower-body program to accomplish it."

I would say the intent/the goal of the athlete HUGELY shapes training results so yes, it's a big deal for the hitter to understand/have a correct mental image of everything he's trying to do. If that top down approach gets your kid where you want to get them---any cue any given day can be golden.

here is another Epstein instructor who explains how the weight shift in epstein drils vs live works as well:

[url=http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1479044&postcount=102]Baseball Fever - View Single Post - epstein complimentary issue

Well I'd answer that two ways. One is to say he has a point. One should not criticize a drill merely for being less than a full swing since the point of a drill is to work on a small part of the swing. Perhaps you and your posse should consider the same point when talking about clips of a kid doing one of Steve's drills. Secondly, I suggest looking at the clips on Epstein's site in terms of what weight shift they produce. I further consider the many Epstein drill trained hitters I've seen. Having said that, it sounds like Epstein is reportedly addressing weight shift. Good.

Tom, you say the MLB pattern starts with back arm action similar to the overhand throw, so you suggest "if you can throw, you can hit". If this is your theory then one would never be able to develop the "major league pattern" using Epstein because neither Epstein's drills ,nor any of his writing even broach the subject of upper body loading ,ie shoulders to bat links .

 

[Mark H]

Interesting comment Mark. I'm curious, when you teach front hip cock, do you teach Soriano's hip cock where he picks his front leg way off the ground and then strides, or do you teach Bonds' hip cock where he basically just strides, or do you teach Chipper's hip cock where he picks up his front foot, brings it back towards his back foot, touches his toe and then strides, or do you teach Pujols' hip cock where he bascially just gets on his front toe and turns in his front knee...or, or, or...?

I teach a more muted hip cock influenced by Dixon they can take to a greater extreme if they want to. It sure doesn't look like the hitting clips on Mike's site where they fan open the front knee regardless of pelvic rotation. Does Mike ever address pelvic loading/hip cock?

Also, I would be interested to know which upper body loading style you teach. Do you teach the Bonds'/Williams'
style where the hands drop below the back arm pit as the front hip cocks and then work back and up during the stride, or do you teach Pujols' loading style where he starts with his hands up high, or do you teach the Julio Franco style where he points his bat over his head towards the pitcher,...or, or, or...?

Depends on the kid and their tendencies in both cases. Got to load the upper body. On a blank slate kid I would teach something very basic. If they add in a Bond's hitch and it works for them, cool.

You mean stunning like Pete Rose or Kelly Johnson (of the Braves)?

I mean stunning as in he had no good answer and had to think before the answer he did give.

 

[Mark H]

Wellphyt,

Don't let Mark bring you down. I think it's great to hear about your daughter's hitting progress...but don't get too excited about it now, ya hear!?

Not to bring him down but rather to help him avoid potholes older heads have driven through but thanks for being concerned.

I know Coach Lotief well - a great guy and a great coach. To my knowledge, he has his own hitting system and obviously it works well for him. Trying to imply an Englishbey connection to Lotief's teaching would be about as far off the mark as you can get.

Yes he does have his own hitting system and yes he has studied everyone including spending many hours with Steve. They talked late enough I fell asleep on the floor in front of the tv. When I woke up in the wee hours they were still going at it.

So Mark, I'm waiting on your description of momentum creation and transfer. I think it would add a lot to the discusion, especially for those new to the journey. Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Mike

And I'm still waiting on you to answer my first question. My answer to you is explain to me your views on Dixon and then we'll save a lot of time.

 

[Mark H]

When I look at Katie's swing (see link below) it just reaffirms what I'm attempting to teach my daughter.

http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com/Portals/0/images/Clips/Cochran_Katie_1.wmv

Good model and studying TW's stuff is always a good call.

 

[Texas]

Um, someone needs to go tell Epstein that isn't Katie Cochran. That is Jackie Vasquez, who graduated last year.

Not to take anything away from Vasquez, that is not "the swing".

 

[Texas]

This is THE swing. YouTube - Katie Cochran home run

 

[Mark H]

Now that's funny. Don't tell Mike, he'd just be embarrassed. Seems like you'd see more clips of her around the net doesn't it? Maybe all the video guys got tired of watching her get walked and gave up.

She would seem to be a living breathing example of Billy Beane's strategy of looking for hitters who walk a lot and hit it far when they don't walk as described in Moneyball.

 

[Jeff_H]

I know Coach Lotief well - a great guy and a great coach. To my knowledge, he has his own hitting system and obviously it works well for him. Trying to imply an Englishbey connection to Lotief's teaching would be about as far off the mark as you can get.

Mike

Talk about a stretch, I implied no such thing.

What I said was that Epstein took some credit for what was being taught at ULL. He also made the statement that though he didn't know what Candrea was teaching, his records showed that his material was purchased by Southwest Camps. That is the organization that Candrea used to run his camps through.

Tankersley played club ball for the Beaumont Blast. The organization had Epstein out for a clinic, but by the time Tankersley and Verde (also on ULL roster) moved on to college, they were using Englishbey's material. I remember most of this from the old Eteamz, and the original forum on Epstein's webpage.

 

[sluggers]

All that can be said has been said about this. This thread is closed.


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