- Oct 25, 2009
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Very interesting articles.
What do you think of possibly:
soft focus prior to release point
hard focus on point of release
soft focus on flight path of ball
hard focus on ball just prior to point of contact
practice bat drag- before / after
- Thread starter JC heir
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Very interesting articles.
What do you think of possibly:
soft focus prior to release point
hard focus on point of release
soft focus on flight path of ball
hard focus on ball just prior to point of contact
Is head motion a problem-not necessarily.All forward motion stops before /at front heel drop/rotation so axis is stable.Leaning back helps this.You are now used to moving this way when you read pitches.You have your own internal inertial frame of reference which will take time to re-establish if you change.
If you change,you may have to change several things together consistently and you will have to find your "eye" again
Nyman: "Performance can be hurt by instructions(cues) to intervene in natural processes by conscious activity since high level performers have developed many elegant nonconscious processes for detecting and processing visual and kinesthetic information along with effective processes for making corrections based on this info."
The ball comes in to fast to follow it smoothly all the way in when you think about the usual model of the visual system.At first the eyes don't have to move much to track,but as the ball gets close,the eyes can't move fast enough to stay focussed on the ball.The brain automatically resets the eyes fast and starts tracking again,a movement called a saccade.You will develop various strategies for watching the ball.One is to try focus on the ball at release,then switching focus to where the ball is anticipated to be at the last moment you can make a correction to the swing which is maybe 15 or 20 ft in front of the plate.It seems that those who try to turn the head or focus on the ball agin closer than this do not do as well.It also seems that what many hitters describe doesn't sound like they are using a visual system that corresponds to this model,but more like a different visual system for high speed tracking called the ambient system.
Can the ball be tracked from release to contact?
Not by the traditional smooth pursuit/saccade system.
Probably by another visual system that exists but is not well studied since the money has been mostly in medical related research where this has not been associated with disease enough to get lots of study.
What matters for the hitting student?
Don't try to stay focussed on the ball.Go from soft to fine focus at release.Don't turn the head back.Swing when it feels right.
If you change,you may have to change several things together consistently and you will have to find your "eye" again
Nyman: "Performance can be hurt by instructions(cues) to intervene in natural processes by conscious activity since high level performers have developed many elegant nonconscious processes for detecting and processing visual and kinesthetic information along with effective processes for making corrections based on this info."
The ball comes in to fast to follow it smoothly all the way in when you think about the usual model of the visual system.At first the eyes don't have to move much to track,but as the ball gets close,the eyes can't move fast enough to stay focussed on the ball.The brain automatically resets the eyes fast and starts tracking again,a movement called a saccade.You will develop various strategies for watching the ball.One is to try focus on the ball at release,then switching focus to where the ball is anticipated to be at the last moment you can make a correction to the swing which is maybe 15 or 20 ft in front of the plate.It seems that those who try to turn the head or focus on the ball agin closer than this do not do as well.It also seems that what many hitters describe doesn't sound like they are using a visual system that corresponds to this model,but more like a different visual system for high speed tracking called the ambient system.
Can the ball be tracked from release to contact?
Not by the traditional smooth pursuit/saccade system.
Probably by another visual system that exists but is not well studied since the money has been mostly in medical related research where this has not been associated with disease enough to get lots of study.
What matters for the hitting student?
Don't try to stay focussed on the ball.Go from soft to fine focus at release.Don't turn the head back.Swing when it feels right.
Tom
"The vestibular system, which contributes to our balance and our sense of spatial orientation, is the sensory system that provides the dominant input about movement and equilibrioception. Together with the cochlea, a part of the auditory system, it constitutes the labyrinth of the inner ear, situated in the vestibulum in the inner ear (Figure 1). As our movements consist of rotations and translations, the vestibular system comprises two components: the semicircular canal system, which indicate rotational movements; and the otoliths, which indicate linear accelerations. The vestibular system sends signals primarily to the neural structures that control our eye movements, and to the muscles that keep us upright. The projections to the former provide the anatomical basis of the vestibulo-ocular reflex, which is required for clear vision; and the projections to the muscles that control our posture are necessary to keep us upright.
The vestibulo-ocular reflex. A rotation of the head is detected, which triggers an inhibitory signal to the extraocular muscles on one side and an excitatory signal to the muscles on the other side. The result is a compensatory movement of the eyes."
Main article: Vestibulo-ocular reflex
"The vestibulo-ocular reflex (VOR) is a reflex eye movement that stabilizes images on the retina during head movement by producing an eye movement in the direction opposite to head movement, thus preserving the image on the center of the visual field. For example, when the head moves to the right, the eyes move to the left, and vice versa. Since slight head movements are present all the time, the VOR is very important for stabilizing vision: patients whose VOR is impaired find it difficult to read, because they cannot stabilize the eyes during small head tremors. The VOR reflex does not depend on visual input and works even in total darkness or when the eyes are closed.
This reflex, combined with the push-pull principle described above, forms the physiological basis of the Rapid head impulse test or Halmagyi-Curthoys-test, in which the head is rapidly and forcefully moved to the side, while controlling if the eyes keep looking in the same direction."
From Keep Your Eyes On The Ball by Dr. Bahill
They used a professional baseball player named Brian Harper and two others however my interest centered on him since the others hand no experience. He demonstrated traits I would expect a pro to use. The way they measured the people is a hoot and you have to see the picture from the book to really appreciate it. If you have ever seen Elton John with the huge glasses, and then put sensors on the head including what looks like an antennae with him wearing a back pack for a power supply, that is what it looks like.
Of interest were the others in ability to track the ball like the pro. They give the direction of tracking the ball in degrees from the fovea of the eye. To gain an understanding of this he suggested using a 12-inch ruler and holding it in front of you at arm’s length. Look at the left end of the ruler and the right end is about 34 degrees off the fovea. While looking at the left end you won’t be able to read the numbers on the right side. Because the two other people were using just their eyes or just their head, they did not track it as well as the pro. Brian tracked the ball using head and eye movements, keeping his eye on the ball longer than the other persons did. He did not track the ball to the point of bat and ball collision.
I made a tool like the ruler to explain how the hitter may or may not be tracking the ball correctly. I used a wooden bat handle and put a piece of drill rod in it. I took a ball and put numbers 1 through 6 on it and drilled a hole in it and threaded the other end of the drill rod and put a nut on it so the ball would not slide off. The handle has an area where the drill rod meets and it is painted red.
They hold the bat handle in their hand away from them at arm length looking at the red area. I ask if they can read the number on the ball to their left. Then I ask them to keep their nose/head pointed at the red.
Now they look towards the ball with only their eyes and then I reverse it keeping their eyes on the red and their nose/head pointing at the ball.
They can feel the strain it causes looking out of the corner of the eye socket versus moving their head so they are not straining their eyes. Now I ask them to look at the ball with their eyes and head.
As I move the ball towards the handle they track it by using smooth-pursuit eye head movements. When they are hitting under/over the ball in soft toss their head is usually pulling out and after explaining the ball on the stick they try and keep the head and eyes working together better. Yes, some of it is hitting technique/style but lets not get into.
KYEOTB page 177; “He was able to keep his position error below 2 degrees until the ball was within 5.5 ft. from the plate, at which point he began to fall behind. When the ball was 2 ft. in front of the plate the image of the ball was already 16 degrees off his fovea and was going 1,100 degrees per second. Thus, he was no longer tracking the ball.”
Again he did not track the ball to the point where he could see the ball and bat collide because it is not possible.
They didn’t say what kind of stance he was using or his mechanics but they went on to say it was repeatable.
“He also had better-eye coordination, as shown in the region where he was giving his
head a head start. In addition, he was better at suppressing the vestibulo-ocular reflex and making his head and eyes move in the same direction.
This allowed him to track the ball with equal-sized head and eye movements, whereas the other subjects usually tracked with either head or eye movements.”
“Together these three superiorities allowed the professional athlete to track the ball to 5.5 ft. in front of the plate compared to our students who fell behind at the 9 ft. mark.”
Note: He did not see the bat and the ball collide!
KYEOTB page 175; To define the terms used above: “Yaw is rotation about the vertical axis, as occurs when shaking your head when answering no to a question. Pitch is rotation about a horizontal axis, as occurs when shaking your head when answering yes to a question. When a ship alternately dips its bow and stern, it is said to be pitching. Roll is rotation about a different horizontal axis, as occurs when cocking your head. When a ship rocks side to side, it is said to be rolling.”
To point out to my students if they are turning their heads far enough to the left as a right handed hitter I have them stand in front of a mirror and tell them the pitcher is in the mirror. They look directly at themselves in the mirror while I am standing behind them. I ask them if they can see the whites on both sides of their eyes. Is their head/neck in comfortable position? Next I have them load up and see if the head rolls away from the pitcher’s window of release or are they rolling the shoulder in so far that it pulls the head off from the pitcher. What I usually see is they are looking about where the second baseman is playing their position! In my opinion unless you can see the white on both sides of the eyes your head is not turned far enough to the left.
So the hitter has a better understanding of what I see their head doing, I’ve taken a helmet liner out of a construction helmet. We attached a pointer (used when giving presentations) that extends out about 3’ from the center of the forehead above the eyebrows and has a 1” diameter foam rubber ball attached to it. They are surprised to see how far their head is positioned to their right and the strain that it puts on their eyes to look back towards the pitcher. Both eyes are not equally seeing the ball. The left eye is basically being used and not that well in my opinion.
This is why in my opinion measuring off from the plate is so important. By using the 5-degree offset it allows them to see the ball better and still cover the entire plate. Two inches may not seem like much however it allows your head to rotate further left comfortably.
Thanks Howard
"The vestibular system, which contributes to our balance and our sense of spatial orientation, is the sensory system that provides the dominant input about movement and equilibrioception. Together with the cochlea, a part of the auditory system, it constitutes the labyrinth of the inner ear, situated in the vestibulum in the inner ear (Figure 1). As our movements consist of rotations and translations, the vestibular system comprises two components: the semicircular canal system, which indicate rotational movements; and the otoliths, which indicate linear accelerations. The vestibular system sends signals primarily to the neural structures that control our eye movements, and to the muscles that keep us upright. The projections to the former provide the anatomical basis of the vestibulo-ocular reflex, which is required for clear vision; and the projections to the muscles that control our posture are necessary to keep us upright.
The vestibulo-ocular reflex. A rotation of the head is detected, which triggers an inhibitory signal to the extraocular muscles on one side and an excitatory signal to the muscles on the other side. The result is a compensatory movement of the eyes."
Main article: Vestibulo-ocular reflex
"The vestibulo-ocular reflex (VOR) is a reflex eye movement that stabilizes images on the retina during head movement by producing an eye movement in the direction opposite to head movement, thus preserving the image on the center of the visual field. For example, when the head moves to the right, the eyes move to the left, and vice versa. Since slight head movements are present all the time, the VOR is very important for stabilizing vision: patients whose VOR is impaired find it difficult to read, because they cannot stabilize the eyes during small head tremors. The VOR reflex does not depend on visual input and works even in total darkness or when the eyes are closed.
This reflex, combined with the push-pull principle described above, forms the physiological basis of the Rapid head impulse test or Halmagyi-Curthoys-test, in which the head is rapidly and forcefully moved to the side, while controlling if the eyes keep looking in the same direction."
From Keep Your Eyes On The Ball by Dr. Bahill
They used a professional baseball player named Brian Harper and two others however my interest centered on him since the others hand no experience. He demonstrated traits I would expect a pro to use. The way they measured the people is a hoot and you have to see the picture from the book to really appreciate it. If you have ever seen Elton John with the huge glasses, and then put sensors on the head including what looks like an antennae with him wearing a back pack for a power supply, that is what it looks like.
Of interest were the others in ability to track the ball like the pro. They give the direction of tracking the ball in degrees from the fovea of the eye. To gain an understanding of this he suggested using a 12-inch ruler and holding it in front of you at arm’s length. Look at the left end of the ruler and the right end is about 34 degrees off the fovea. While looking at the left end you won’t be able to read the numbers on the right side. Because the two other people were using just their eyes or just their head, they did not track it as well as the pro. Brian tracked the ball using head and eye movements, keeping his eye on the ball longer than the other persons did. He did not track the ball to the point of bat and ball collision.
I made a tool like the ruler to explain how the hitter may or may not be tracking the ball correctly. I used a wooden bat handle and put a piece of drill rod in it. I took a ball and put numbers 1 through 6 on it and drilled a hole in it and threaded the other end of the drill rod and put a nut on it so the ball would not slide off. The handle has an area where the drill rod meets and it is painted red.
They hold the bat handle in their hand away from them at arm length looking at the red area. I ask if they can read the number on the ball to their left. Then I ask them to keep their nose/head pointed at the red.
Now they look towards the ball with only their eyes and then I reverse it keeping their eyes on the red and their nose/head pointing at the ball.
They can feel the strain it causes looking out of the corner of the eye socket versus moving their head so they are not straining their eyes. Now I ask them to look at the ball with their eyes and head.
As I move the ball towards the handle they track it by using smooth-pursuit eye head movements. When they are hitting under/over the ball in soft toss their head is usually pulling out and after explaining the ball on the stick they try and keep the head and eyes working together better. Yes, some of it is hitting technique/style but lets not get into.
KYEOTB page 177; “He was able to keep his position error below 2 degrees until the ball was within 5.5 ft. from the plate, at which point he began to fall behind. When the ball was 2 ft. in front of the plate the image of the ball was already 16 degrees off his fovea and was going 1,100 degrees per second. Thus, he was no longer tracking the ball.”
Again he did not track the ball to the point where he could see the ball and bat collide because it is not possible.
They didn’t say what kind of stance he was using or his mechanics but they went on to say it was repeatable.
“He also had better-eye coordination, as shown in the region where he was giving his
head a head start. In addition, he was better at suppressing the vestibulo-ocular reflex and making his head and eyes move in the same direction.
This allowed him to track the ball with equal-sized head and eye movements, whereas the other subjects usually tracked with either head or eye movements.”
“Together these three superiorities allowed the professional athlete to track the ball to 5.5 ft. in front of the plate compared to our students who fell behind at the 9 ft. mark.”
Note: He did not see the bat and the ball collide!
KYEOTB page 175; To define the terms used above: “Yaw is rotation about the vertical axis, as occurs when shaking your head when answering no to a question. Pitch is rotation about a horizontal axis, as occurs when shaking your head when answering yes to a question. When a ship alternately dips its bow and stern, it is said to be pitching. Roll is rotation about a different horizontal axis, as occurs when cocking your head. When a ship rocks side to side, it is said to be rolling.”
To point out to my students if they are turning their heads far enough to the left as a right handed hitter I have them stand in front of a mirror and tell them the pitcher is in the mirror. They look directly at themselves in the mirror while I am standing behind them. I ask them if they can see the whites on both sides of their eyes. Is their head/neck in comfortable position? Next I have them load up and see if the head rolls away from the pitcher’s window of release or are they rolling the shoulder in so far that it pulls the head off from the pitcher. What I usually see is they are looking about where the second baseman is playing their position! In my opinion unless you can see the white on both sides of the eyes your head is not turned far enough to the left.
So the hitter has a better understanding of what I see their head doing, I’ve taken a helmet liner out of a construction helmet. We attached a pointer (used when giving presentations) that extends out about 3’ from the center of the forehead above the eyebrows and has a 1” diameter foam rubber ball attached to it. They are surprised to see how far their head is positioned to their right and the strain that it puts on their eyes to look back towards the pitcher. Both eyes are not equally seeing the ball. The left eye is basically being used and not that well in my opinion.
This is why in my opinion measuring off from the plate is so important. By using the 5-degree offset it allows them to see the ball better and still cover the entire plate. Two inches may not seem like much however it allows your head to rotate further left comfortably.
Thanks Howard
Bonds gets a good 2 eyed look:
http://www.hittingillustrated.com/Bonds/Bonds10.gif
"chin tuck" is necessary for balance.
turning/rotating head back interferes with rotation.
two eyed look/head at pitcher means you can track better, but you still need to trust the ambient system and swing when it feels right based on consistent mechanics (consistent internal inertial frame of reference) and experience.
trying to consciously track the ball too much/too long/too far will interfere with more important unconscious processes.
a lot of vision and balance drills have nothing to do with the swing, just gets you better at drills.
2x4, reading numbers off balls,etc. giant waste of time.
http://www.hittingillustrated.com/Bonds/Bonds10.gif
"chin tuck" is necessary for balance.
turning/rotating head back interferes with rotation.
two eyed look/head at pitcher means you can track better, but you still need to trust the ambient system and swing when it feels right based on consistent mechanics (consistent internal inertial frame of reference) and experience.
trying to consciously track the ball too much/too long/too far will interfere with more important unconscious processes.
a lot of vision and balance drills have nothing to do with the swing, just gets you better at drills.
2x4, reading numbers off balls,etc. giant waste of time.
I have not found the chin tuck necessary for balance however we get more power as we hit the ball as we have engaged the intrinsic muscle group. We get a better two eyed look when when our head is more upright than leaning over in our opinion. We have used the strobe light to show tracking can be taught and improvements made.
Have you ever tried this before with your students?
Being able to be on time with the pitcher or dancing with the pitcher is where all the drill work pays off. Incorporating it into your drills is where it can be felt by the hitter and they develop a sense of awareness for it to use it in a game. Where the body is in space and time including the position of the head during contact can be felt even when the hitter is blind folded. We have done this with the Instructo Swing, off a tee and even using the WhipHit and it requires a sense of balance, rhythm and timing. If the head is not in the same position as it would be as if we were tracking they usually hit over the top of the ball.
What specific vision or balance drills would you think is inappropriate? Please do not reference someone elses work as I am interested in what you use.
Thanks Howard
The vestibular system, which contributes to our balance and our sense of spatial orientation, is the sensory system that provides the dominant input about movement and equilibrioception. Together with the cochlea, a part of the auditory system, it constitutes the labyrinth of the inner ear, situated in the vestibulum in the inner ear (Figure 1). As our movements consist of rotations and translations, the vestibular system comprises two components: the semicircular canal system, which indicate rotational movements; and the otoliths, which indicate linear accelerations. The vestibular system sends signals primarily to the neural structures that control our eye movements, and to the muscles that keep us upright. The projections to the former provide the anatomical basis of the vestibulo-ocular reflex, which is required for clear vision; and the projections to the muscles that control our posture are necessary to keep us upright.
The vestibulo-ocular reflex. A rotation of the head is detected, which triggers an inhibitory signal to the extraocular muscles on one side and an excitatory signal to the muscles on the other side. The result is a compensatory movement of the eyes."
WOW!!!
Howard
Its clear to me now.I will let casey read this so we are on the same page.
Thanks
Straightleg
Gerry
Remember how I broke it down for you in the garage while you were watching your eyes in the mirror and turning your head in the direction of the catcher?
Thanks Howard
soft-hard-soft focus
swing when it feels right.
tuck chin don;t turn head back..
that strobe stuff is garbage.
what do you do Howard ?
swing when it feels right.
tuck chin don;t turn head back..
that strobe stuff is garbage.
what do you do Howard ?
Tom
I feel you may be mocking what you do not understand or may not have tried your self. We do turn our head and the eyes will fixate at the pitchers window of release and because of the liquid in the inner ear is moving the eyes maintain their gaze and then you moved the head slightly towards the catchers position and the eyes will catch up as the eyes can move faster than the head.
"The vestibular system, which contributes to our balance and our sense of spatial orientation, is the sensory system that provides the dominant input about movement and equilibrioception. Together with the cochlea, a part of the auditory system, it constitutes the labyrinth of the inner ear, situated in the vestibulum in the inner ear (Figure 1). As our movements consist of rotations and translations, the vestibular system comprises two components: the semicircular canal system, which indicate rotational movements; and the otoliths, which indicate linear accelerations. The vestibular system sends signals primarily to the neural structures that control our eye movements, and to the muscles that keep us upright. The projections to the former provide the anatomical basis of the vestibulo-ocular reflex, which is required for clear vision; and the projections to the muscles that control our posture are necessary to keep us upright.
The vestibulo-ocular reflex. A rotation of the head is detected, which triggers an inhibitory signal to the extra ocular muscles on one side and an excitatory signal to the muscles on the other side. The result is a compensatory movement of the eyes." Because the extra ocular muscles coordination may be improved in some individuals we do the pencil drills and card drills and many kids have seen the improvements not only in sports but also in school as their ability to scan faster when reading is helped.
I have used the strobe drill for over 12 years with many high profile athletes and normal athletes and kids who are LD, with the same results that would beg to differ with you as they could not track the ball using their method and hit soft toss while using the strobe. Once they started to understand they must give their head a head start they could hit every ball. When we turned the regular lights back on they said they could see the ball better by giving their head a head start.
I have experimented on my own over the years trying to see what techniques work good, better best to help the kids, so we have some experience and have probably worked with at least 2,000 kids over the years. I have done the blind fold drill when doing a clinic with Marc, Hillhouse, Kobata, Hartwig and the lady from Soft Ball The Magazine and she took some pictures of me and a kid doing this blind fold drill. They gave me a kid I had never worked with before to demonstrate our teaching methods with. I soft tossed her an inside pitch, down the middle and outside pitch and she pulled all three pitches. I made the prediction she probably would not throw well either and the mother came onto the floor in the cage and said how could you say that as you have never seen her throw before? I whispered into the mothers ear, she has no weight shift and uses a stiff front leg and I bet her elbow and shoulder hurt after a double header. I announced she would either throw the ball into the ground or the top of the cage (cage was a 70 x 12 cage) and had a boys pitching platform at the end turned on its edge so you could see the screws underneath it. I said hit the top screw and she threw it into the ground and then tried again it into the top of the cage. I looked at the mother and said I predicted this and she told the other coaches I said this would happen and then I looked at the daughter and said your elbow hurts here and your shoulder hurts here after a double header. She told her mother did you tell him that? No he told me! Within three hours with about 30 people watching us she hit to all fields and threw accurately enough to hit any nail I called out and then we blinded folded her and she hit balls off the tee. You will like the next one Tom, I tapped my foot on the ground and this was a signal for her to start her swing and after she hit three balls in a row I removed the tee and soft tossed her without her knowledge I had removed the tee. She missed a few as she was not tracking the ball normally as if she see, IE turning the head from the pitcher, giving her head a head start and then she started hitting the balls. We did this within three hours. How long does it take you to train a student to do this?
Her confidence level was over the top and mom had tears in her eyes!
Before you call it garbage you might want to ask how we do it and if I am in a better mood I might share it with you. Ever heard of the Fosbury flop Tom?
Thanks Howard
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What he does is work with hitters. Which makes his opinions attractive.
I have no idea why you don't understand that your own refusal to work with hitters completely eliminates your credibility. I don't understand why you refuse to do so. But you do, so your data is suspect. Throw passive/aggressive on top of that, andt just isn't a bargain.
Since I am new to this site, are you telling me Tom does not teach nor is an instructor?
No wonder he references everyone elses work....thanks for clearing this up for me!
Thanks Howard
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