Pitching instructor won’t allow dd coach to attend lesson

[Ken Krause]

I totally agree! I started pitching at the age of 10 and did not take a lesson or learn to throw anything other than a fastball until I was in HS. Things were very different 40 years ago!! We didn’t play year round and there was no travel ball.
I instruct girls of all ages and abilities. I don’t teach movement pitches until they are ready. I recently had a parent come back from a tournament and told me that the HC needs her to learn how to throw a screw ball and a rise. She is 14!!! I would actually like to have communication with these HC’s. It seems to me that most of them are not interested in calling pitches in games based on the pitcher’s strengths...they want each pitcher to throw the same pitches. I don’t get it?!?!?!

I think some of them download those charts that say what to call in each situation and then try to use them in games. So they think their pitchers need all these different pitches.

The charts are a nice guideline, but you can make age-appropriate substitutions. They can also lead you astray. Pitching Chart 101 is to throw inside to a hitter crowding the plate. But I have a few students who I instruct to crowd the plate because she can CRUSH an inside pitch but struggles on the outside at times. So throwing inside like the chart says is leading your pitcher to slaughter.

Instead of trying to get too fancy, be sure the pitcher can throw the pitches she already throws first. Otherwise you're just adding more confusion.

By the way, I also love the coaches who are adamant about 12 year olds hitting their spots. This presumes the coach knows which spots to call, which is not always true of 12U coaches. Sometimes a little natural inconsistency can save a coach from him/herself.

 

[PJR]

Did I miss the part where it was stated the HC changed something the pitching coach taught? If so, then I would completely agree.

And we have uncdrew saying it's not an IP thing, and other parents saying it is an IP thing. Seems to be confusion.

Bill

Yes he said the HC told her change her start. "

Then we go to practice at her team facility and her coach shows up to practice with her and he is questioning her on why she was doing things the way this PI instructed her. He went on to having her raise her back foot, transfer weight and bend a bit at the waist before push off."
This was different than the pitching coach had just taught her. There is zero need to tell the girl that what she learned from her PI is wrong. ​

My point is as a HC we need to respect the pitching or coach, hitting coach or overhand throwing coach they are working with. I would love to have the HC and pitching coach on the same page but as a PI I don't want HC's changing mechanics.

 

[PJR]

I'm not going to debate you or what you said, I think this was a well thought out reply. Here's my question though based off your last sentence: By what metric are you measuring "highly qualified"? College scholarships? If so, there are 10,000 pitching coaches in this country who post online all their student's scholarships as though they are the reason for that success. In your post you mentioned the Linear-Rotational hitting debates. One side think the other is crazy, just like politics in the USA. But both sides Linear and Rotational will show videos of their top students or someone who follow's their philosophy as "proof" that THEIR way is the right one. Neither side seems to see that there is both movements in top hitters. Instead, they hold fast to their platform.

Again, I don't know Mr. Tincher. I know very little about him except he had a pretty successful daughter at VA Tech. But I do know he didn't invent any of the things he's saying in pitching. Neither did I. Neither did anyone on this message board.

In this thread, a lot of people want to jump the the conclusion that the HC is there to challenge the pitching coach instead of being there to learn what to say, what to look for and how to help in games when the pitching coach is not there. If that's the HC's intent and reason, then I think it's silly to deny him based off some Intellectual property (which Tincher did NOT invent in the first place) scenario. If the coach IS there to tell this coach that he/she is wrong, Hello Elbow is correct and the PI is ruining this student, then I'd agree it shouldn't happen. But the IP thing is a very weak reason.

I'm genuinely curious, do students and parents of students have to sign some form of non-disclosure agreement to be a "Tincher student"? I'm not being a smart rear, I'm asking legitimately. If not, that raises another question I'd have.....

Bill

There is not a non-disclosure agreement. Parents are in the lessons and I believe I have seen a coach or two. It would take me years to know as much as my instructor even though I know more than the average parent. There is no filming the entire lesson but that was the case when my DD went to see Rita Lynn Gilman years ago. Instructors are independent contractors, who have passed a certification process. I would call it a quality control process for an brand and not an IP process. I have met Denny and he will answer any questions. He actually encourages students and parents to ask why? My guess is the PI made this call not some IP mandate from Mr Tincher. I constantly do my own research and have questions for my instructor. He is always open to them. This is not Star Wars and there is no secret force. Anyone who thinks there is one is fooling themselves.

 

[Bandit CJ]

I’m wondering if this is common or if I am making an unreasonable request?

Here is the back story: my dd used to pitch when she was in 10u and 12u. She stopped because she just didn’t have the emotional capacity to handle the pressure that position was placing on her. Fast forward 2.5 years and now she 14 playing 16u and has grown these incredibly long legs and is just tall and strong. We decided to try pitching again because some team dynamics dictated she at least try and lo and behold, it is like she never stopped. She has better mechanic now than she ever did when she was younger.

Anyway, to begin this exploration we scheduled an appointment with a local Tincher certified pitching instructor. The first lesson went well and was basically just to get her comfortable with throwing again and to see what the PI thought of her potential. The PI does do a few things different than she ever learned in the past, like keep the back foot flat on the floor and don’t bend forward before push off. Then we go to practice at her team facility and her coach shows up to practice with her and he is questioning her on why she was doing things the way this PI instructed her. He went on to having her raise her back foot, transfer weight and bend a bit at the waist before push off.

So I message the PI to set up another lesson because everyone is very positive about her potential and she honestly looks good. I tell the PI I want her coach to attend because of the small differences in lower body philosophies and how I want everyone on the same page especially since her TB coach will be working with her the most. He messages back and says he can’t allow the coach at the lesson.

So back to my original question after this long story, is that normal?

 

[Bandit CJ]

As a head coach I would want to be on the same page with one of my player's pitching instructor. If there is a difference of how to do something then both coaches need to talk about it and find out why the difference and agree on how to instruct the player. Maybe the PI or head coach has a specific reason for that they want done and that needs to be communicated.
If either the PI or HC is bull headed and only sees there way that is a problem. The parents then need to decide who they trust. With some communication I dought it would come to that.
I know I am bias but I don't want an outside instructor undermining what I teach, so we need to get on the same page.

 

[Hillhouse]

Yes he said the HC told her change her start. "
Then we go to practice at her team facility and her coach shows up to practice with her and he is questioning her on why she was doing things the way this PI instructed her. He went on to having her raise her back foot, transfer weight and bend a bit at the waist before push off."
This was different than the pitching coach had just taught her. There is zero need to tell the girl that what she learned from her PI is wrong.
My point is as a HC we need to respect the pitching or coach, hitting coach or overhand throwing coach they are working with. I would love to have the HC and pitching coach on the same page but as a PI I don't want HC's changing mechanics.

At the top of page 9 of this thead, I already gave my mea culpa about missing that part of the OP's first message!!!

Bill

 

[Rick M]

As a head coach I would want to be on the same page with one of my player's pitching instructor
...
If either the PI or HC is bull headed and only sees there way that is a problem. The parents then need to decide who they trust. With some communication I dought it would come to that.
I know I am bias but I don't want an outside instructor undermining what I teach, so we need to get on the same page.

There it is in a nutshell. Kudos to instructors like AVPitchingCoach who are able to reassess what they've learned and apply new techniques with their students.

 

[nikkilugi]

I appreciate all the responses and opinions given. I texted again with the PI and it does seem that there is a history between him and the HC according to the PI.

I did not ask him to elaborate. I will say the first lesson was obscenely expensive so to save my sanity and pocketbook I thanked the PI and have decided to move in the direction of another PI who also happens to work with our org and team directly. I know that this PI and her HC will be able to collaborate together which will cut down the stress for my dd. I told the PI I would be forever grateful for the lesson because he made dd realize she still had the skill and desire to pitch.

I trust dd’s HC. He is well respected in the community and he has invested a lot of time into my dd even before the pitching came back up for her. That is the route we decided to go.

 

[uncdrew]

Sounds like a good move. With my limited knowledge of your situation and my bias, I was siding with the PI. But for your DD and for your sanity, you made a wise move.

 

[texasheat]

Thanks for the insight. I need my dd’s HC to attend because he will be the person primarily reinforcing the skills she learns and working with her when she can’t get to lessons. I don’t think it is too much to ask that the HC and PI be on the same page with her pitching instruction.

The flat back foot was not part of a drill. This was working her into her push off / “jumping over a ditch” as the PI told her. He also said bending over takes away power from her hips. This is exactly opposite of what her HC told her when working with her. Neither her nor I are knowledgeable enough to tell the HC why the PI is having her do certain things and I don’t think it is unreasonable for the HC to question. I am taking it as a questions lead to learning situation and I can tell he truly wants to learn to implement what is best for my dd.

I told the PI that while I respected his right to his intellectual property, I needed her HC to be able to attend because he will be the person reinforcing the skills more so than me especially since the PI is not available more often that every 3/4 weeks for lessons. If that couldn’t happen then we would need to find a different instructor.

Bill to answer your question - we are in the Virginia Beach area. So if anyone knows of a good instructor to take my dd to I would appreciate the referral.

My 2 cents here - you're letting this Head Coach have WAY too much influence on teaching your DD. Head coaches come and go as you change teams or as they change teams so don't bend over backwards so that this HC can influence your DD's development. That should be happening away from him anyhow.