Pitching instructor won’t allow dd coach to attend lesson

[CoachAl]

I’m wondering if this is common or if I am making an unreasonable request?

Here is the back story: my dd used to pitch when she was in 10u and 12u. She stopped because she just didn’t have the emotional capacity to handle the pressure that position was placing on her. Fast forward 2.5 years and now she 14 playing 16u and has grown these incredibly long legs and is just tall and strong. We decided to try pitching again because some team dynamics dictated she at least try and lo and behold, it is like she never stopped. She has better mechanic now than she ever did when she was younger.

Anyway, to begin this exploration we scheduled an appointment with a local Tincher certified pitching instructor. The first lesson went well and was basically just to get her comfortable with throwing again and to see what the PI thought of her potential. The PI does do a few things different than she ever learned in the past, like keep the back foot flat on the floor and don’t bend forward before push off. Then we go to practice at her team facility and her coach shows up to practice with her and he is questioning her on why she was doing things the way this PI instructed her. He went on to having her raise her back foot, transfer weight and bend a bit at the waist before push off.

So I message the PI to set up another lesson because everyone is very positive about her potential and she honestly looks good. I tell the PI I want her coach to attend because of the small differences in lower body philosophies and how I want everyone on the same page especially since her TB coach will be working with her the most. He messages back and says he can’t allow the coach at the lesson.

So back to my original question after this long story, is that normal?

A couple of things I find strange here. First, this seems like an awful lot of brain cycles being spent on the pre-pitch/windup motion. Not saying it's not important but, as long as it doesn't get the pitcher into a mechanically incorrect position, it's more style than anything. The actual pitch is where the focus should be.

Second, I have had team coaches attend lessons many times when they have questions. I actually wish more coaches would do that! Not sure why the PI would have an issue here unless there's egos in play or insecurity issues going one....both of which (unfortunately) are quite common in travel ball these days!

 

[SBallCoachD]

I kind of get the whole IP thing...not that I agree with it all...this person didn't invent pitching for gosh sakes. I am the HC for my DD's academy travel ball team. And she's a pitcher. And she goes to someone else for pitching instruction. I catch her at most lessons but my job is to sit on the bucket with my mouth shut and as somebody else mentioned, understand what the instructor is telling her, the verbal cues she is using, etc. so that I can reinforce those things in practices or, if she has a weekend where she is struggling - help her try and understand what she's feeling so she can correct. All 3 of my pitchers use the same instructors (it's a group of 3 instructors and each has one of my pitchers). They encourage me to attend and ask questions for all of the pitchers so that I can reinforce what they are teaching. Plus, I see the girls more than they do and can pass on things I'm noticing that might be helpful to them (e.g. girl does X in games but not in lessons or practice). They ask me to take and send them videos from time to time as well. It has to be a relationship between the 2 (HC and PI) in my mind that has one goal - help the player.

 

[Hillhouse]

This is what I wrote on the Facebook group "The Fastpitch Zone" a few days ago. The context of my statement was a question about "Tincher pitching" and the comments went on to rave about this "new method" of pitching, which I finally couldn't take anymore. Here was my reply:

William Hillhouse This may just be semantics but, in reading these comments it's worth saying: Mr. Tincher did NOT invent pitching. He did not RE-invent pitching. All that's happened is he's made a McDonald's like chain of his pitching teachings and spread it across the country. And GOOD FOR HIM!! Smart business move and it's got a lot of people talking about him and thinking this is all his "stuff" he's teaching. No, it's not. There's NOTHING new in softball pitching. Tincher seems to be the first to franchise pitching without the Hello Elbow mentality of 20 years ago, and some therefore believe he invented it. There are A LOT of voices screaming "don't pitch the HE way" but Mr Tincher's is one of the loudest because of the franchise. I do not know Mr. Tincher, have never met him. I think it's somewhat sad he claims Intellectual property on something he didn't invent: softball pitching. But that's another argument. I don't know Dr. Werner either but I know the Finch family is very high on her. Yet nobody talks about the elephant in the room that Jennie doesn't actually pitch (in games) with the HE method of pitching they all advocate!!! Anyway, I'm glad you all enjoy your pitching coaches and they connect with your kids. Anything that is not HE is probably a good thing but, sorry.. I can't call this the "Tincher method" since he didn't invent it.

 

[PDM]

Wow, that's quite a story. Personally, at clinics I have invited coaches, parents, grandparents, the kid's weekly pitching coach and anyone who has day to day access with the kid and their softball training to attend, ask questions, heckle me from the crowd, anything. If it really is an Intellectual property thing, I think that's really sad. Sad because Mr Tincher did not invent pitching. He invented NOTHING about pitching. Neither did his "certified coach". So how can someone claim IP on something they didn't create?? If I only had a nickle for every time I had someone "steal" something I've said or taught, I'd be Bill GATES not Hillhouse. Heck, many things on YouTube were never "authorized" by me to be up there, people just do it!!

I'd be curious where you guys are from. You mentioned a Metro area.

And not becoming dependent on the pitching coach? Is he serious? Why the hell do you think UCLA has a pitching coach on staff? Or any college program? Or any MLB program? Those pitching coaches interact with the pitchers DAILY!!!!!! If I was a cynic I'd say that almost sounds like a scam for more money: A $50 lesson turns into $75 when the coach plays hard to get and parents get desperate. I absolutely hope that's not the case.

I'm thinking I should seek out one of these instructors for my own pitching development since there seems to be a secret I've gone my whole career without knowing. Maybe I can enter the 50 over division with a whole new perspective on pitching.

Bill

Mr. Hillhouse is right on the money. Real coaches will talk about their craft with anyone and everyone. We debate and compare notes, having the confidence in our philosophy and technical knowledge to test it against others' thoughts. Sometimes those conversations reinforce what we already know, sometimes we learn better ways to teach, and sometimes we find flaws in what we are currently teaching. If I was the parent in the scenario given, I would find a new pitching coach. Coaches who aren't willing to share what they are doing are afraid of someone calling them on their poor instruction. If this coach was truly interested in the development of the athlete, he/she would want the HC there so that the HC could reinforce that pitching instruction in team practices and games. If I was the parent I would also want my athlete to have access to the pitching coach a lot more frequently than once every 3 weeks, at least until the athlete is comfortable with what is being taught and doesn't need the constant reinforcement and correction that is required when learning something new.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

Oh, geez. I welcome coaches, parents, grandparents and the family dog. But, then, I will be 66 on Saturday. I’m a bit different.

 

[PJR]

I’m wondering if this is common or if I am making an unreasonable request?

Here is the back story: my dd used to pitch when she was in 10u and 12u. She stopped because she just didn’t have the emotional capacity to handle the pressure that position was placing on her. Fast forward 2.5 years and now she 14 playing 16u and has grown these incredibly long legs and is just tall and strong. We decided to try pitching again because some team dynamics dictated she at least try and lo and behold, it is like she never stopped. She has better mechanic now than she ever did when she was younger.

Anyway, to begin this exploration we scheduled an appointment with a local Tincher certified pitching instructor. The first lesson went well and was basically just to get her comfortable with throwing again and to see what the PI thought of her potential. The PI does do a few things different than she ever learned in the past, like keep the back foot flat on the floor and don’t bend forward before push off. Then we go to practice at her team facility and her coach shows up to practice with her and he is questioning her on why she was doing things the way this PI instructed her. He went on to having her raise her back foot, transfer weight and bend a bit at the waist before push off.

So I message the PI to set up another lesson because everyone is very positive about her potential and she honestly looks good. I tell the PI I want her coach to attend because of the small differences in lower body philosophies and how I want everyone on the same page especially since her TB coach will be working with her the most. He messages back and says he can’t allow the coach at the lesson.

So back to my original question after this long story, is that normal?

Lots of questions. First did you ask why they won’t let HC watch a lesson? Tincher instructors are suppose to be training you to constantly ask why am I doing this. In your lesson did you or DD ask why are we doing it this way? More importantly why is the head coach changing something a PI is teaching? Is the head coach a pitching instructor? At higher levels the head coaches job should not be to be a hitting or pitching instructor. The truth is if your coach believes a certain way is right nothing will change HC mind. Think of playing for a HC who believes in the linear swing method and you DD goes to a rotational instructor. The linear coach will not budge and the rotational coach will tell you the linear guy is crazy. If you throw launch angle into the conversation look out, WWIII will erupt. Getting them in the same room is a recipe for disaster. Most coaches are not open minded about this stuff. The Tincher style can bring similar feelings. Not that I think there is some magical formula that Tincher has, but in essence they do not want to give away the methods to other instructors and are very protective(probably by contract). They spend an immense amount of time and am assuming money to get the certification. They believe their method is mechanically sounder(better)and will help prevent injuries. This of course can be interrupted as arragance. My take is the HC and this PI have crossed paths and that this HC will take the opportunity to debate the merits of the Tincher style. My DD has been seeing a Tincher instructor for two years and I have heard many times from coache I don’t believe in that Tincher stuff. Here is the real question, does the PI Have a record of developing pitchers? Assuming you did your research and they do, I would tell the HC politely to stay in his lane. I have attended multiple clinics with Denny present and numerous instructors including trainees. Every Tincher instructor I have meet is highly qualified and you are getting a good instructor.

 

[PJR]

Wait a minute, you mentioned the HC being a "distraction".... that's a different story. To attend the lessons, hear what's being taught, and being able to help the pitcher in games when the pitching coach isn't there is a different situation!! Absolutely, if the coach is a distraction then they shouldn't attend. No question, end of story. But for a coach that wants to learn how to help the pitcher in games, how to help the team win, and simply to learn the game.. then it's kinda petty to not let them in.

Fastpitch is a female sport huh? Ok, I will concede that the men's fastpitch game is no where near what it was 30, 20 or even 10 years ago. But, you obviously don't know your history of the game. The female game today only exists because of the men's game of yesteryear. Men's fastpitch used to be what the female game is today, played at every ballpark coast to coast. And slight correction, there is no, and never has been, Olympic men's fastpitch teams. There are National teams but not Olympic. Subtle but important difference.

That said, was your DD taught to throw overhand the same way as boys? Swing a bat? Run bases? I'm guessing so, therefore you lose your argument about the "women's body" thing. Any woman I've ever dated will confirm that I (and most men) know nothing about the female body.. ha ha... but somehow softball pitching has become the center piece for the differences in the genders. Yet, shortstops throw overhand the same as boys, the swing is now the same as boys baseball, they catch fly balls and grounders the same as boys, and run bases the same way... but when it comes to pitching "Oh, we're 100% different!!!!" Bullcrap. Do not confuse the RULES for pitching (men and women) with the mechanics of pitching. Put me side by side with Cat Osterman and you will see more similarities than differences.

what you described is not just "in your area". There isn't much men's fastpitch to speak of nationwide. And I'll say it again, I have no problem with your DD saying she can relate better to a female. I was just curious about that statement, and I think you answered my question about it being because MOST men have not pitched before. However, as an experiment, ask your coach if she learned pitching from a man or woman. If she says woman, ask if THAT coach learned from a male or female. I don't think it will take more than 2 "generations" before you come to a men's fastpitch pitcher as the original coach. And NOOOOOOOOO, I'm not saying men are the end all, be all of pitching!!! there's a lot out there with really crappy mechanics that don't know how to teach pitching. And this speaks nothing to your DD's preference!!! But if it's because "men don't play fastpitch" then she could be missing out on some great instruction from those that have played/pitched.

Bill

Bill

I have followed you for years and respect your teachings. I agree no one coach has all the answers and it is a constant learning process but very respectfully a head coach changed something the pitching coach taught. If I am the HC and my daughter goes to a Tincher coach and one of my pitchers goes to you I shut my mouth. I can disagree with you style or methods but I can’t disagree with the results. If for some reason I really see something wrong(PC has produced no pitchers has no track record and girl is not improving) then I discuss it with parents and the player that maybe they should look elsewhere, but I don’t change them during practice after one lesson.

 

[uncdrew]

That would be sad. As Solomon once said "There's nothing new under the sun." I have often visited my pitcher's lessons and have never had a coach/instructor that did not allow that. I did it for the sole purpose of being able to support what that instructor was teaching the student as the instructor rarely comes to the games. I would give instruction too but I do not believe in a cookie cutter and I also do not believe that it's my way or the highway.

Just want to reiterate that it's not a Tincher Intellectual Property thing at all. I honestly think he'd laugh if he heard that.

Tincher is doing great as a company, doing great financially. They are all quick to admit they aren't the only good teachers out there and that there are several ways to teach. He's open and honest about his methods -- heck, you can see videos online pretty easily.

Like most of us, he understands that you don't become a professional pitching coach by watching a few experts teach a lesson or two.

 

[Hillhouse]

Lots of questions. First did you ask why they won’t let HC watch a lesson? Tincher instructors are suppose to be training you to constantly ask why am I doing this. In your lesson did you or DD ask why are we doing it this way? More importantly why is the head coach changing something a PI is teaching? Is the head coach a pitching instructor? At higher levels the head coaches job should not be to be a hitting or pitching instructor. The truth is if your coach believes a certain way is right nothing will change HC mind. Think of playing for a HC who believes in the linear swing method and you DD goes to a rotational instructor. The linear coach will not budge and the rotational coach will tell you the linear guy is crazy. If you throw launch angle into the conversation look out, WWIII will erupt. Getting them in the same room is a recipe for disaster. Most coaches are not open minded about this stuff. The Tincher style can bring similar feelings. Not that I think there is some magical formula that Tincher has, but in essence they do not want to give away the methods to other instructors and are very protective(probably by contract). They spend an immense amount of time and am assuming money to get the certification. They believe their method is mechanically sounder(better)and will help prevent injuries. This of course can be interrupted as arragance. My take is the HC and this PI have crossed paths and that this HC will take the opportunity to debate the merits of the Tincher style. My DD has been seeing a Tincher instructor for two years and I have heard many times from coache I don’t believe in that Tincher stuff. Here is the real question, does the PI Have a record of developing pitchers? Assuming you did your research and they do, I would tell the HC politely to stay in his lane. I have attended multiple clinics with Denny present and numerous instructors including trainees. Every Tincher instructor I have meet is highly qualified and you are getting a good instructor.

I'm not going to debate you or what you said, I think this was a well thought out reply. Here's my question though based off your last sentence: By what metric are you measuring "highly qualified"? College scholarships? If so, there are 10,000 pitching coaches in this country who post online all their student's scholarships as though they are the reason for that success. In your post you mentioned the Linear-Rotational hitting debates. One side think the other is crazy, just like politics in the USA. But both sides Linear and Rotational will show videos of their top students or someone who follow's their philosophy as "proof" that THEIR way is the right one. Neither side seems to see that there is both movements in top hitters. Instead, they hold fast to their platform.

Again, I don't know Mr. Tincher. I know very little about him except he had a pretty successful daughter at VA Tech. But I do know he didn't invent any of the things he's saying in pitching. Neither did I. Neither did anyone on this message board.

In this thread, a lot of people want to jump the the conclusion that the HC is there to challenge the pitching coach instead of being there to learn what to say, what to look for and how to help in games when the pitching coach is not there. If that's the HC's intent and reason, then I think it's silly to deny him based off some Intellectual property (which Tincher did NOT invent in the first place) scenario. If the coach IS there to tell this coach that he/she is wrong, Hello Elbow is correct and the PI is ruining this student, then I'd agree it shouldn't happen. But the IP thing is a very weak reason.

I'm genuinely curious, do students and parents of students have to sign some form of non-disclosure agreement to be a "Tincher student"? I'm not being a smart rear, I'm asking legitimately. If not, that raises another question I'd have.....

Bill

 

[Hillhouse]

Bill

I have followed you for years and respect your teachings. I agree no one coach has all the answers and it is a constant learning process but very respectfully a head coach changed something the pitching coach taught. If I am the HC and my daughter goes to a Tincher coach and one of my pitchers goes to you I shut my mouth. I can disagree with you style or methods but I can’t disagree with the results. If for some reason I really see something wrong(PC has produced no pitchers has no track record and girl is not improving) then I discuss it with parents and the player that maybe they should look elsewhere, but I don’t change them during practice after one lesson.

Did I miss the part where it was stated the HC changed something the pitching coach taught? If so, then I would completely agree.

And we have uncdrew saying it's not an IP thing, and other parents saying it is an IP thing. Seems to be confusion.

Bill