Pitching instruction.

[lhowser]

If a pitching coach doesn't understand IR (forget using the magic words "IR"...but the concept that the forearm pronates at release), then the pitching coach doesn't understand the pitching motion.

A pitching coach:

(1) Must have knowledge of the entire pitching motion
(2) Must be able to identify deficiencies within a student's motion.
(3) Must be able to teach the entire motion.

If a pitching coach doesn't understand IR (again, recognizing that a person in Helena might call it something different than a person in Tokyo), then that coach doesn't fully understand the pitching motion.

The idea that IR is natural is silly...there is nothing natural about softball pitching.

Amen...dads, moms...that about sums it up.

 

[starsnuffer]

Eh, if you teach to have a relaxed (not locked) arm where the elbow leads the downswing, it's damn near impossible NOT to have "internal rotation" in order to release a good pitch. So yeah, I think it is natural, because I just went outside and tried to lead with the elbow and not have IR and I just couldn't do it.

Perhaps the key here is to look for a PC who pitches and who's students pitch in a motion that includes the elbow (as opposed to the hand/wrist) leading the downswing before release and leave the IR mumbo jumbo to the internet?

-W

 

[Screwball]

Eh, if you teach to have a relaxed (not locked) arm where the elbow leads the downswing, it's damn near impossible NOT to have "internal rotation" in order to release a good pitch. So yeah, I think it is natural, because I just went outside and tried to lead with the elbow and not have IR and I just couldn't do it.

Perhaps the key here is to look for a PC who pitches and who's students pitch in a motion that includes the elbow (as opposed to the hand/wrist) leading the downswing before release and leave the IR mumbo jumbo to the internet?

-W

Amen, but keep in mind while you focus on fastballs, no one throws a fastball after about the age of 16, except in practice, so the end of the motion, ie, or the hand/wrist position (from the middle backside of the circle or 3 o'clock) will be different to spin each pitch. That would seem to me to affect the forearm position as you would be able to stop it in a video.

Keep in mind, we can stop videos and send them to everyone now, so yes, 'IR' always existed but no one 'freeze framed' it to the extent they do now.

 

[ArmWhip]

You can give them the words and try to teach it but since it is a 'feel' thing many kids will struggle to learn it. I know what it is, I pitched modified that way and can recognize it, but changing the motion of girls who have been taught that a powerful wrist snap is the way it's done can be frustrating. All successful pitchers use IR, many of them are the lucky one who learned in spite of having an instructor who didn't understand it. My daughter went to a girl who was a former All American and a pitcher on one of our Olympic teams, she was big on the wrist snap, that was how she had been taught. She was nice enough to let me video her motion. When I showed her the video and pointed out the lack of a wrist cock and snap she told me that it was in there, the video just didn't show it.

 

[EP Dad]

So, wrist snap is BS then and IR is actually what happens?

I guess I understand what IR is now but are we really saying there is no wrist snap? Cause wrist snap is still taught heavily and it's one of the things my daughter has been complimented on the most.

 

[starsnuffer]

"Wrist snap", as taught by many instructors by doing flip drills, has nothing to do with pitching movement, it's only usually taught because the person teaching it "was taught that way" and never really understood why. It's really only still taught by instructors who have never taken the time to actually understand their craft.

That said, when "wrist snap" happens AFTER proper IR, then it can indeed add additional speed to a fastball. The problem is that a fastball isn't a pitch used once the girls reach a certain age and since the same snap isn't really applicable to other pitches, one has to marvel at the emphasis some instructors put on it.

IMHO, the time spent practicing "wrist snaps" would be better spent practicing the peel spin on a peel drop.

-W

 

[Sparky Guy]

The problem is that a fastball isn't a pitch used once the girls reach a certain age and since the same snap isn't really applicable to other pitches, one has to marvel at the emphasis some instructors put on it.

My sentiments exactly. I start moving the girls I work with away from the fastball at around 12 years old depending on their ability. By the time they are 14U the fastball is used to warm up with to get all the muscles heated up and loose. Then they go into their other pitches.

What I do when I start teaching girls movement is give them a short physics lesson before they start anything with a new pitch so they understand EXACTLY what they are trying to accomplish with the pitch. Once they understand how the laces of the ball interact with the air combined with movement they seem to try and be more precise with their spins. The other thing I've found is they seem to be able to adjust better if things are not going right.

 

[EP Dad]

I see. Wrist Snap is only as relevant as the fastball. Makes sense.

 

[ArmWhip]

It depends on how you define wrist snap. In the classic sense of how it is defined there is no wrist snap, no cocking back, no snapping forward. Naturally there is a load on the wrist as you come into release, the arm is accelerating the ball, when the ball is released the hand will accelerate further since it has released the weight of the ball and the wrist will bend. What complicates the issue is that when a pitcher throws a spin pitch like a curve or a rise any kind of bulletspin pitch the hand/fingers will often slide under the ball and after the pitch is released the follow through has a palm up look to it, this looks just like the finish that the "wrist snap" is supposed to produce. With a bulletspin fastball you might have a palm up finish, with a topspin fastball (sometimes called a peel drop) the hand will roll over after release.

 

[sluggers]

Good thread...but it has drifted from the original topic. So, I've closed it.