Opinions on attacking the lead elbow

[Wellphyt]

Speaking of Slaught, here is one of my favorite references.

Insider: Manny Ramirez Swing Analysis - ESPN Video - ESPN

Stop it at the 5:45 mark and take a look at the position of Manny's back elbow and lead forearm. Notice his hands are still at his back shoulder and they have not yet turned the corner. Also notice the pitch location is below the belt. Did anyone see Manny's front elbow move forward toward the pitcher as if were going up a ramp in response to the back elbow lowering. Or, is it possible that the movement of the front elbow forward is a result of shoulder rotation, and not caused by the back elbow slotting?

 

[tom.guerry]

Ask Slaught what he thinks about Mike Lotief's approach.

 

[Wellphyt]

Chris I feel it is waste of my time and much of the softball community to follow some of this stuff. I will let you carry on the argument. I still doubt if some of you teach anyone especially if you cannot understand the differences between a male and a female hitter. I guess Bustos,Berg, Whatley, Lowe and others don't really understand how to hit a ball and what works... Funny when people who play the game can tell you what they feel as a female and no one believes them and Epstein is a God. I will be with Don Slaught next week. I printed the above just to let someone who was a professional hitting coach in baseball read some of this stuff . Figure it will be an interesting conversation at dinner.

Just for the record I never said that Bustos, Berg, Whatley and Lowe don't know how to hit a ball. I also never said I didn't believe what these hitters feel. What I did do is question a drill that you said you teach or have seen being taught. I did the drill as you described, and it appears to promote an action where the lead arm moves forward towards the pitcher as the back elbow slots. FFS posted a clip of Tyson, a female FP player, working her elbows independently. I have clips of Bustos, Cochran and others on my computer, and they all do what Tyson does. This is not a case of me not understanding the differences between the male and female body. It's a case of me seeing with my own two eyes females hitters slotting their back elbow without their lead elbow moving forward towards the pitcher. With all these hitters, the forward movement of the lead elbow is a function of shoulder rotation.

As I pointed out in my earlier post, if FP players are being taught to slide their lead forearm forward as the back elbow slots, then there will indeed likely be clearance issues. Doesn't it make more sense to lift the lead forearm off the chest early as Tyson does, and let the hands follow the shoulders around the corner? What am I missing?

 

[RayR]

Play this in quicktime. Beginning in frame 8 Tyson is actively turning the barrel. The front elbow path is greatly affected by this action of turning the barrel / whipping the barrel.

Pay attention to her lower body and where it is at frame 8 to allow the hands to turn the barrel. Try throwing a bat at and imaginary high pitch and see if the actions match up

[/QUOTE]

 

[Wellphyt]

Here is a sequence of Bustos starting at the point when her back elbow begins to slot. Ending as her hands begin to turn the corner. Notice how her lead elbow stays constant relative to the white lettering on the front of her jersey as her back elbow slots. IOW her lead elbow does not slide across her chest or move forward towards the pitcher in response to the back elbow slotting. Bustos uses a handset position which has her lead forearm close to max up, however if you look closely you can still see how the back elbow picks up the lead forearm (Compare the position of her lead forearm to the white stripe that separates the red from the blue on her jersey).

A lot of FP players, and every MLB player I have seen, passes through the position Bustos gets to in the 4th and 5th picture in the sequence. Back elbow down/tucked/slotted...front forearm max up...barrel pointed behind her...hands at the back shoulder...weight balanced. IMO if a hitter can get to this position on time, they have a much better chance of hitting the ball square.

 

[RayR]

Well - compare bat tip position compared to hand position for the first 4 pics. Use the fence behind you as a marker. The front elbow gets to be an automatic. The back elbow gets to be an automatic. The body will support the main goal of getting the bat to contact if shown properly.

I bet no one really had to show all the old greats how to hit - they knew how get the barrel around. I am not saying that there shouldn't be instruction - what I am saying is that certain principles need to be in place as we teach/train. And one of main ones is that the hands turn the barrel into the ball.

 

[Towson 15]

Ray,
Are you talking about whipping into contact?Isn't that present in every MLB swing?

 

[RayR]

Yup - but the whipping starts way upstream. Try to whip late - it's ugly - it looks more like a wrist flip into contact.

And really it is how you set up the whip - meaning the lower body has to set up the whip. The power for the whip comes from the legs/core. Never disputed the main engine - just isn't a complete model. Work the hips and hands together.

The hands turning the barrel as they move forward is what produces this kind of look. Like the nike logo

Ray,
Are you talking about whipping into contact?Isn't that present in every MLB swing?

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Yup - but the whipping starts way upstream. Try to whip late - it's ugly - it looks more like a wrist flip into contact.

And really it is how you set up the whip - meaning the lower body has to set up the whip. The power for the whip comes from the legs/core. Never disputed the main engine - just isn't a complete model. Work the hips and hands together.

The hands turning the barrel as they move forward is what produces this kind of look. Like the nike logo

If you try to whip the barrel early by activating the hands too much, you won't whip, you will sweep.

What good hitters actually do is they set and then hold the hinge angle (the angle between the forearm and the barrel). When the hands turn the corner, that causes the bat head to whip out into the path of the ball.

The Benyi clip above shows this well. Notice how the barrel doesn't come off of her shoulder until relatively late in the swing.

The same principle applies to golf and other sports like soccer.

 

[Wellphyt]

Here is a common position that I see in all good hitters. Everyone of these hitters has their back elbow down, lead arm max up off the letters, hands back at the rear shoulder, and barrel facing behind them. Notice that the barrel is not pointed toward the catcher in any of these clips.

Notice that both females and males are able to get into this position. IMO, if females are taught to get into this position, there are no clearance issues. When I say "into", what I really mean is "pass through". Epstein describes this position as the universal launch position. I'm sure others call it something else.

This thread is about the lead elbow, and I believe these clips clearly show how the lead elbow gets up very early in the sequence. It's important to note that the lead elbow gets up without any forward movement toward the pitcher. IMO this is important because if the lead elbow moves forward toward the pitcher as the back elbow slots, then that means the hands are also moving forward toward the pitcher. I call this a push, and it's is something I have been trying to point out on here for a long time. You can hit doing it both ways, however it is more efficient to keep the hands back when the back elbow slots. Most don't see this "push", because the shoulders are also beginning to turn, and the shoulder rotation covers up the "push". All of the hitters I posted, have figured out how to get their back elbow down and their front forearm/elbow up without moving their hands toward the pitcher.

Normally I don't go to this much trouble to make a point, but it was insinuated that I don't work with young ladies because of some of my beliefs on hitting. I can't let that go unanswered.