Opinions on attacking the lead elbow

[FiveFrameSwing]

No problem BD. I suspected there was a bit of confusion. I certainly respect your passion.

There is more I'd like to discuss with you on the topic when I have time.

 

[SBFAMILY]

If many others of you believe in a tight hand path then you should explain your self well enough, so people understand the difference in male to female anatomical differences such as wider shoulders on a male and narrower hips. Maybe not stress tight hand path, tight hand path! None of you ever mentioned clearing or any problems associated with the elbow dragging, just being tight!

Possibly explain this may require individual adjustments based on body type, especially with young girls going through puberty, as the chest cavity gets thicker in preparation for the breast to arrive and may require further adjustments as time goes on, and explain they may have to open the shoulders a little more over time to clear the breasts. This is why we pull on the rope, so they have a feeling of what it actually feels like when teaching it. This is also why we use Howard's hand path device, so they see the relationship of the shoulders and elbow opening and the knob of the bat is parallel to the ball based on pitch location and then we release the barrel to the ball as squarely as possible.

Females have narrower shoulders that are usually rounded, laxity in the shoulders once a month, and carrying angle differences of at least 4 to 10 degrees and yes grip is critical to controlling the bat and yes it effects bat drag.

To get the hitter to better understand what the lead elbow actually is doing, we have them place their top hand palm down and under the lead elbow as a platform with the lead elbow in the hitting position on top of the back of the hand. Then we say these magic words, where my elbow was resting ,my hand will now be! The lead elbow moves forward then angles up like it is going up a ramp and never looses contact with the back of the top hand and replaces were the elbow was at the start. It is a great visual for the kids. As the elbow is moving forward and down the forearm to the wrist, it slides and stays in contact with the back of the hand. Doing this in front of a mirror also allows then to see it and feel it and fix it.

The rope re enforces this also during bat lag.

 

[Wellphyt]

For the record, I do not advocate slamming the elbow against the rib cage. Also, I use slot and tuck interchangeably as does Epstein.

"Trailing elbow tucks in for compactness, keeping the arc of the swing tight"
-Ted Williams

"No matter where the hitter places his rear elbow in his stance, it must "slot" (tuck "down and in" against his ribcage) at the launch position. The underlying reasons are (1) to allow the lead elbow to work up and help reposition the hitter’s body-tilt rearward so the plane of the swing can match the plane of the pitch, and (2) so the hitter can stay inside the ball. Both of these movements, coupled with the hitter’s torque position, comprise the "universal" technique of the vast majority of baseball’s best and most productive hitters."

"The correct definition of staying inside the ball is "the hands follow the rotating body around its axis." For this to occur, the back elbow—on the swing approach—must already be "slotted" down and in against the hitter’s ribcage. It makes no difference where his hands are positioned in his stance: his pre-swing movements will reposition his hands as he strides to the "universal launch position" (the top of the top hand aligned approximately with the bottom of the armpit). Slotting the elbow correctly enables the hitter to stay "connected" when he starts his swing. If he isn’t connected at this point, it will be very difficult—if not impossible—for him to stay inside the ball."
-Mike Epstein

There are other Epstein quotes that talk about the rear elbow tucking in or slotting... CLOSE...to the body. This gets back to Ken's comment a while back about giving kids definitive coordinates when teaching. The body works from the inside out. It is virtually impossible mid swing to successfully bring the hands back in once they get away from the body. Therefore it makes sense to me to use cues such as "at the side" or "close to the side". There is no way I would ever teach a player to slot their rear elbow a specific distance from the body, because IMO that distance is not the same for every pitch.

Notice the word "correctly" in this sentence from the second quote from Epstein above:
"Slotting the elbow correctly enables the hitter to stay "connected" when he starts his swing."

IMO, if you teach the correct movement to begin with, the distance from the rib cage will take care of itself and is a no-teach. I'm quite certain if you talk to a pro hitter, they are not thinking about what their elbow is doing.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

None of you ever mentioned clearing or any problems associated with the elbow dragging, just being tight!

See post here.

 

[Wellphyt]

If many others of you believe in a tight hand path then you should explain your self well enough, so people understand the difference in male to female anatomical differences such as wider shoulders on a male and narrower hips. Maybe not stress tight hand path, tight hand path! None of you ever mentioned clearing or any problems associated with the elbow dragging, just being tight!

Possibly explain this may require individual adjustments based on body type, especially with young girls going through puberty, as the chest cavity gets thicker in preparation for the breast to arrive and may require further adjustments as time goes on, and explain they may have to open the shoulders a little more over time to clear the breasts. This is why we pull on the rope, so they have a feeling of what it actually feels like when teaching it. This is also why we use Howard's hand path device, so they see the relationship of the shoulders and elbow opening and the knob of the bat is parallel to the ball based on pitch location and then we release the barrel to the ball as squarely as possible.

Females have narrower shoulders that are usually rounded, laxity in the shoulders once a month, and carrying angle differences of at least 4 to 10 degrees and yes grip is critical to controlling the bat and yes it effects bat drag.

To get the hitter to better understand what the lead elbow actually is doing, we have them place their top hand palm down and under the lead elbow as a platform with the lead elbow in the hitting position on top of the back of the hand. Then we say these magic words, where my elbow was resting ,my hand will now be! The lead elbow moves forward then angles up like it is going up a ramp and never looses contact with the back of the top hand and replaces were the elbow was at the start. It is a great visual for the kids. As the elbow is moving forward and down the forearm to the wrist, it slides and stays in contact with the back of the hand. Doing this in front of a mirror also allows then to see it and feel it and fix it.

The rope re enforces this also during bat lag.

Maybe some of us didn't mention anything about clearance or elbow dragging, because we don't have those issues with the way we teach the action of the elbows, or as I prefer to call it, "the hand flattening process". If you are teaching players to move their front elbow "forward and up a ramp" as their back elbow slots, then I can understand your concern with clearance issues.

FFS - can you post a still shot of Tyson, Butos and whoever else you have; frozen right before their hands turn the corner. I'm looking for the first frame where they get the back elbow down and the front forearm max up? Thanks.

 

[SBFAMILY]

Yes that is how Howard, Bustos, Slaught and many other hitting coaches teach the front elbow action in fastpitch.
" The front elbow goes out than gradually went up like it was going up a ramp. This is a very important move and helps set the angle of the bat to the plane of the pitch."

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Wellphyt ... I wasn't exactly sure of the frame you wished to capture ... so I created a slow moving GIF stopping at contact. IMO she establishes connection in the normal way with her bottom hand flattening to the swing plane early on. I personally don't see her having to make any abnormal adjustments because of her breasts.

 

[Wellphyt]

Wellphyt ... I wasn't exactly sure of the frame you wished to capture ... so I created a slow moving GIF stopping at contact. IMO she establishes connection in the normal way with her bottom hand flattening to the swing plane early on. I personally don't see her having to make any abnormal adjustments because of her breasts.

Thanks FFS. If anyone is interested they can save the Tyson clip to their computer by right clicking on it. Once saved to your computer, right click on it again and open it up with QuickTime. Once it's opened, click the right arrow key on your keyboard 15 times. I'm assuming it works the same on most computers. At the 15th click on my computer, I have Tyson with her back elbow down and her lead elbow max up, and her hands are still at her back shoulder. IMO, this is a key position that instructors need to look for in a good swing. I consider the hands to be flat at this point, which is not the same to me as the hands being "palm up - palm down". I also consider this to be the point where the hitter has established connection. This is how I teach the hand flattening/connection/rear elbow slot/front forearm lift, process.


Notice how his back elbow works completely independent from his lead elbow. IOW, the back elbow does not move the lead elbow forward or "up a ramp" as it slots. What I see in these clips are two hitters whose lead forearm lifts up off the chest/letters as the back elbow slots. I do not see a lead elbow or forearm that moves forward and up a ramp.

The up the ramp "Look" of the lead forearm, is just that; it's a Look. The Look is caused by lateral shoulder tilt and rotation. In reality, good hitters, including Bustos, get their back elbow down and their front forearm max up, before their hands turn the corner, as seen in the clips of Tyson and Utley. When the hand flattening process is taught in this manner, I see no clearance issues because the lead forearm clears the chest very early in the swing. Once the hands are connected, they pretty much following the rotating shoulders around the corner. Again, I see no clearance issues up until this point. Once the hands turn the corner and begin working out in front of the body as they approach contact, then I can see the possibility of an issue with clearance with the back forearm. However, the swing is on autopilot at this point, and I have to believe that women instinctively know how to work out the logistics of clearance at that point in the swing, if in fact it is an issue.

Anyways, that's why I didn't mention anything about clearance. I see a female (Tyson), doing the same thing as a male (Utley).

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Here is a clip of Utley doing the same thing.

Notice how his back elbow works completely independent from his lead elbow.

I don't think this is an accurate interpretation of this clip.

You stopped it right at the point where the two started to sync up.

Anyways, that's why I didn't mention anything about clearance. I see a female (Tyson), doing the same thing as a male (Utley).

This pitch is at the top of the strike zone at the shoulders.

It's more complicated on pitches middle middle.

 

[SBFAMILY]

Chris I feel it is waste of my time and much of the softball community to follow some of this stuff. I will let you carry on the argument. I still doubt if some of you teach anyone especially if you cannot understand the differences between a male and a female hitter. I guess Bustos,Berg, Whatley, Lowe and others don't really understand how to hit a ball and what works... Funny when people who play the game can tell you what they feel as a female and no one believes them and Epstein is a God. I will be with Don Slaught next week. I printed the above just to let someone who was a professional hitting coach in baseball read some of this stuff . Figure it will be an interesting conversation at dinner.