Opinions on attacking the lead elbow

[RayR]

You mean sweeping like this? When do I lose the hinge angle? I am not trying to hold the angle - just trying to turn the barrel so I can throw the bat.



Here is a bat throw simulating a low pitch

 

[Chris O'Leary]

You mean sweeping like this? When do I lose the hinge angle? I am not trying to hold the angle - just trying to turn the barrel so I can throw the bat.

You may not be trying to hold the hinge angle, but you do nonetheless.

You are turning the barrel, but you are turning it with your shoulders and not your hands.

 

[RayR]

Trust me Chris - I am trying to turn the barrel with my hands. The body supports this action. Look - there are ways to screw this up. I do need to keep my hands near my shoulder as I turn the barrel - I can't let them cast - but that to me is understanding what the hands should be doing.

Give it shot - video yourself throwing a bat.

You may not be trying to hold the hinge angle, but you do nonetheless.

You are turning the barrel, but you are turning it with your shoulders and not your hands.

 

[cshilt]

Here is a common position that I see in all good hitters. Everyone of these hitters has their back elbow down, lead arm max up off the letters, hands back at the rear shoulder, and barrel facing behind them. Notice that the barrel is not pointed toward the catcher in any of these clips.

And none of them have their back elbows jammed into their rib cage. Every hitter in those pics has a small amount of clearance. This is what Hitter/Bustos promote and some want to claim that the SL example was/is what they promote. The amount of clearance of the back elbow is dependent on pitch location.

 

[cshilt]

You mean sweeping like this? When do I lose the hinge angle? I am not trying to hold the angle - just trying to turn the barrel so I can throw the bat.

I like the bat throwing drill, but can you please throw a Wal Mart bat instead of that nice composite one?

 

[Wellphyt]

Ray,
Are you talking about whipping into contact?Isn't that present in every MLB swing?

I teach "throw", not whip. Throw the barrel, throw the hands, throw the top hand...

I like the Helicopter drill because IMO it does a pretty good job of teaching the proper action. I also like the "turning the double play" and "skipping a rock" cues used by Slaught.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Nice MTS!

Compared to your open top hand demo, which was good mind you, this demo is much better in terms of the overall sequence. No static start ... synchronized sequence with "Stretch".

Good for you.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Yup - but the whipping starts way upstream. Try to whip late - it's ugly - it looks more like a wrist flip into contact.

And really it is how you set up the whip - meaning the lower body has to set up the whip. The power for the whip comes from the legs/core. Never disputed the main engine - just isn't a complete model. Work the hips and hands together.

The hands turning the barrel as they move forward is what produces this kind of look. Like the nike logo

I agree with this. The entire swing is a whip. The lower body is huge in this regard ... and yes, the hands are largely responsible for turning the barrel.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

View attachment 909

Here is a common position that I see in all good hitters. Everyone of these hitters has their back elbow down, lead arm max up off the letters, hands back at the rear shoulder, and barrel facing behind them. Notice that the barrel is not pointed toward the catcher in any of these clips.

Notice that both females and males are able to get into this position. IMO, if females are taught to get into this position, there are no clearance issues. When I say "into", what I really mean is "pass through". Epstein describes this position as the universal launch position. I'm sure others call it something else.

This thread is about the lead elbow, and I believe these clips clearly show how the lead elbow gets up very early in the sequence. It's important to note that the lead elbow gets up without any forward movement toward the pitcher. IMO this is important because if the lead elbow moves forward toward the pitcher as the back elbow slots, then that means the hands are also moving forward toward the pitcher. I call this a push, and it's is something I have been trying to point out on here for a long time. You can hit doing it both ways, however it is more efficient to keep the hands back when the back elbow slots. Most don't see this "push", because the shoulders are also beginning to turn, and the shoulder rotation covers up the "push". All of the hitters I posted, have figured out how to get their back elbow down and their front forearm/elbow up without moving their hands toward the pitcher.

Normally I don't go to this much trouble to make a point, but it was insinuated that I don't work with young ladies because of some of my beliefs on hitting. I can't let that go unanswered.

Wellphyt ... the insinuation was uncalled for and was basically a cheap way to try to win an argument. You have kept the discussion technical ... and I thank you for doing that.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

You mean sweeping like this? When do I lose the hinge angle? I am not trying to hold the angle - just trying to turn the barrel so I can throw the bat.

MTS, thank you for doing this demonstration and describing your "under the hood" intent of not trying to maintain the hinge angle.

IMO, an objective of physically trying to hold the hinge angle can lead to swing issues, including 'bat drag'. As I've stated before, and as you are demonstrating, dropping the notion of maintaining a hinge angle does not degrade the swing ... if anything, it helps free the hands to do their job.

Can't get over how your sequence looks much better doing this demo. Don't know to attribute it to this demo, or something you've been working on. Would like your thoughts on it.