More illegal pitches called now in All-Star tournaments?

[FPump]

PONY is an organization in softball similar to ASA, USSSA, NSA that has tournaments for the different age groups. It's more prevalent in some areas than others.

The initials stand for:
Protect
Our
Nations
Youth
Yes strong in certain parts of the country, esp. in areas where ASA was not adequatley meeting the demands of girl's FP softball. Many of the teams I encounter at PONY weekend tourneys, I also run into on the ASA tourney circuit. It's a good program, and well run on the national, regional zone, and state level.

 

[FPump]

I'm with Hal and any of other posters who have come down on the side of IP's not being called at the 8U level for all the reasons stated.
My .02 on this is...what os an umpire to do if he is directed by a UIC or TD that IP's are to be called and enforced at an 8U tourney?

 

[Lozza]

He should be calling the rules.

It's perfectly ok to tell a kid that a rule is stupid.

Why is it stupid? Why is it more stupid than say, not stepping out of a drawn box? Or hitting a ball in between certain peramators? Or touching the player with the ball to get them out on some plays, and not others?

Sports are made up of stupid rules. Want to play the sport, obey the rules, or suffer the consequences.

 

[Carty]

FPump - I think I know what you are getting at. UIC ot TD tells you crack down, you crack down. And we will hear about it from both sides. Isnt this what happened this year for NCAA and WCWS? A lot of posts out there about it.

Lozza - early you said take away the penalty for IP (advancement), but isnt that the reason for the rule. To negate the effect of the IP?

Our local rec leagues put extra rules in for younger players, I think it is pretty typical. Things like no DK3, no IFF, no stealing home . For the 8s, one town has a walk so many and it goes to coach pitch for the rest of the inning. Havent had one on the IP yet. Certainly not perfect and I have seen them struggle with special rules that the intent was to help the girls learn and keep coaches from running girls because they know 7 YO Suzie learned to throw three weeks ago. But they work at these rules all with the intent that when these girls are at a higher level they play within the rules and keep them involved.

 

[dpett]

I'm all for a warning first for 10u and younger. The argument all the college coaches were making was calling IP's now was unfair because that's how they have been pitching for 10 years. So when do you start if not at the beginning ages? If your pitcher is illegal then teach her correctly or get someone who will. It's not the umpires job to teach the pitchers. That's what coaches are for.

 

[SoftSocDad]

He should be calling the rules.

Yes, but not every rule in softball needs to be implemented on 7-8 year olds. Despite your protests, the value just isn't there.

Why is it stupid? Why is it more stupid than say, not stepping out of a drawn box? Or hitting a ball in between certain parameters? Or touching the player with the ball to get them out on some plays, and not others?

Sports are made up of stupid rules. Want to play the sport, obey the rules, or suffer the consequences.

You can't hand a typical 7-year-old girl the ASA rulebook and say 'learn this'. While there are those few who would be able to read it all with any reasonable degree of comprehension, my money says that not a single one of them would understand EVERYTHING she'd just read.

I'm not sure why you're so intent on 1st and 2nd-year players (ages 7-8) 'suffering the consequences' (your words) of something so technical when they barely know much about the game at all. If a girl has just learned to throw for the first time in her life and is being asked to try pitching because it's a rec league and on this team with no pitcher, everyone has to try it at least once, please tell me what is gained by an opposing coach yelling 'illegal pitch, ump!' every time she throws the ball.

There are no walks in our 8u. At 4 balls, it's coach pitch and they inherit the strike count. Most of the coaches soft toss the balls to their girls, so many times, it's essentially a free base anyway. If we're not going to issue walks, then why should we be looking for illegal pitches?

About 50% of the girls who play 8u don't make it to 10u and an even smaller percentage go on to 12u. There's no added value in harping on something that won't have any bearing on the future softball 'careers' of most of the girls on the field.

 

[Lozza]

Lozza - early you said take away the penalty for IP (advancement), but isnt that the reason for the rule. To negate the effect of the IP?

Only for the younger ages. I agree that having a girl get a base every IP destroys the pitchers. A ball is a smaller penalty, but it still makes the coach want to fix the problem. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away.

I'll give a different example. (since some seemed intrested in me talking about netball in a different thread) There is a contact rule in netball and in seniors when contact is called on a player, they are 'out' and stand next to the player they contacted until the ball is thrown again. It gives them a disadvantage for breaking the rules. (down a player for that second, and that player has to sprint to catch up) In netta (which is Under 10s) when contact is called, the player isn't out, but they do have to move back to the required distance. It teaches them the rules, while at the same time not making it impossible for them to play.

You can't hand a typical 7-year-old girl the ASA rulebook and say 'learn this'. While there are those few who would be able to read it all with any reasonable degree of comprehension, my money says that not a single one of them would understand EVERYTHING she'd just read.

No, but the person teaching them to pitch can explain it to them in language they understand. Your example is straw-man, as I've never known ANY pitching coach to hand a starting pitcher a rule book and make them read the rules. They show them what to do.

I'll ask this again, as its not been answered yet. If we don't call it at U8s, when do we call it?

 

[ASAPAump]

Yes, but not every rule in softball needs to be implemented on 7-8 year olds. Despite your protests, the value just isn't there.

And some rules ARE taken out of the younger age groups, but those are established beforehand. As I said, there used to be a whole page in the ASA rulebook regarding rules that don't apply to the 10U age-group. Local leagues can amend whatever rules they want, for instructional purposes, equipment purposes... anything. Tournaments, too! But it is in writing, and everyone knows it beforehand.

Never, not once, have I seen any amended rule set that said "oh, and by the way, we don't want you calling illegal pitches."

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

I'll ask this again, as its not been answered yet. If we don't call it at U8s, when do we call it?

Lozza - I understand your concern, at what point do you start calling it? At 10U. At 8U, my suggestion would be to warn the pitcher first at this level and then call an IP but make the pitch a ball (but no advancement of base runners). At this young level, it sends a message to the coaches and pitchers about the importance of legal mechanics but doesn't penalize the player so severely that she will not be allowed to pitch the rest of the game (i.e. the manager will pull the pitcher immediately). We had this happen to us at 8U and it is very unfortunate situation. There is such a lack of good pitching at the 8U level that we shoud use some reasonableness within the rules for the betterment of the game.

 

[cshilt]

I fully believe that the penalty of advancing a runner is what prevents umpires from wanting to call it. Advancing a runner on a judgment call is not something that most blues savor.