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Aug 8, 2008
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DD used the Finch trainer several years ago for 3 months and it produced about 2 mph improvement. At the time she was working with an instructor that taught the push type motion. About a year later we switched her to a whip mechanic and since then she has gained about 12 mph. Part of this improvement can be attributed to maturing and strength gains to be sure. While these gains are purely anecdotal they do lead me to the following conclusions.

The Finch trainer promotes good shoulder rotation, but its primary benefit is in strengthening the shoulder. It is fundamentally an exercise machine. The strength increase achieved should in and of itself reduce the potential for injury and would likely be demonstrable in a before and after study. One would likely see modest gains in speed if used regularly, but those gains are limited.

A whip arm circle requires lag – the elbow trails the shoulder; the hand trails the elbow until the hand whips past at release. It is an absolute and can be clearly seen in the Finch clip. Attempting to do a whip arm circle with the Finch trainer is nearly impossible and would likely cause injury because it would put a significant amount of stress on the shoulder from 12 o’clock to release.

The reason for this is one has to set the resistance relatively high and continue to increase the resistance in order to gain shoulder strength. This requires a push arm circle because the resistance is constant throughout the circle. This constant resistance means that the arm and shoulder are trying to accelerate the ball from zero through every degree of the circle - there is no momentum.

In a whip pitching motion there is also a constant resistance at the shoulder while the ball is lagging behind, but the ball is also accelerating. At the general point where the internal rotation of the arm occurs, the ball is accelerating faster than the shoulder.

The several studies I have seen state that for overhand pitching the majority of injuries occur during the deceleration phase, while the majority of injuries in underhand pitching occur during the acceleration phase.

It would seem to me that the shoulder has to be accelerating through the spin/release phase of the motion with the push model otherwise the ball would slow down. This means there is a constant resistance in the shoulder to accelerate the ball through the entire motion – the very feeling the Finch trainer promotes. In the whip model the shoulder accelerates through the first three quarters of the motion – more or less. During the spin/release phase the shoulder is decelerating as it transfers energy into the arm. At that point the shoulder rotates to support the internal rotation of the forearm – basically a separation of duties – an entirely different feeling than is achieved from the trainer.

Both the whip and push models have potential for injury. The constant acceleration of the shoulder in the push model puts a significant amount of stress on the shoulder at release, but is fairly easy to sequence. The amount of lag and the timing of internal rotation of the whip model are more difficult to sequence and can put additional stress on the shoulder if not sequenced correctly.

As one increases the amount of energy put into an action the potential for injury increases so one has to develop the underlying strength to support the action. So the Finch trainer is a useful piece of exercise equipment and can reduce injury by strengthening the shoulder. But, there is a limit to how much one can accelerate the shoulder and no amount of additional strength will produce significant improvement or reduce the risk of injury – there is a point of diminishing returns.

The difference in mechanic is another matter. One can accelerate the shoulder equally in push and whip mechanics. Because of this the push mechanic is a dead end. Spin and speed are tied directly to shoulder acceleration in the push model. In the whip model the lag to internal rotation creates an additional source of both speed and spin.

The risk of injury can be mitigated in either mechanic by proper strength and conditioning programs among many other factors.
 
May 12, 2008
2,210
0
Doug Finch told a good friend of mine a couple of years ago that he emphazises as much hip rotation as possible, to the point of almost facing the catcher at release.

That is the first thing I've read on the net in a long time that surprised me. Interesting. Thanks.
 
May 4, 2009
874
18
Baltimore
Doug Finch told a good friend of mine a couple of years ago that he emphazises as much hip rotation as possible, to the point of almost facing the catcher at release. This is certainly not the case with his daughter who hardly turns her hips. Also, if the above clip is an attempt to throw a rise ball then it is a poor attempt or the video clip is so bad that my eyes are seeing things. At the exact moment of release, the palm of the hand is almost facing the catcher. If the ball rolls off the side of the fingers then this would result in a bullet spin and not a rise ball. This could be a curve ball at best or a drop ball IMO.

I've seen this clip a hundred times. The ball ends up fairly high in the strike zone and looking at the way her hand is under the ball for a good part of the pitch it is undeniably a rise ball. Her follow through is not optimal, since she pulls her arm straight up instead of following through accross her body. I know she is Jenny Finch but her mechanics are not perfect.
 
I was hoping to get more replies from people who were there to get there take on what was said. I actually sat threw his station two and a half times. I have some video of Jennie pitching during the clinic, but the quality isn't very good.

I'll try to clairfy on the push thing. Doug demonstrated holding the ball at the 3:00 position with his hand on top of the ball, and said that was the proper position and a "natural motion". This put the least stress on the shoulder. At the same position, he then moved his hand more under the ball to demonstrate the improper position, which puts more stress on the shoulder. What happens after 3:00 in realtime, for me anyway, is hard to say.

Halskinner: To clarify the "style" statement. Doug never called it "his style". What I should have said was the style he was demonstrating.

Hillhouse: Do you know Frank Keating? I think he said you pitched for the team he sponsers, Keating's Fitness out of Wilkes-Barre, PA. I think maybe during a trournament in Canada??
 

BLB

May 19, 2008
173
18
I've seen this clip a hundred times. The ball ends up fairly high in the strike zone and looking at the way her hand is under the ball for a good part of the pitch it is undeniably a rise ball. Her follow through is not optimal, since she pulls her arm straight up instead of following through accross her body. I know she is Jenny Finch but her mechanics are not perfect.

The video clip is not clear. Is the palm of her hand (fingers) facing the catcher at release or still facing more towards 3rd base? That will determine whether it can be an effective rise ball or not. Also, is the ball coming off the end of her fingers or to the side? This could determine whether it can be a curve ball or drop if the hand is indeed facing the catcher. The follow-through is also an indicator of the pitch being thrown such as this video. The orientation of her hand on the downswing doesn't necessarily mean anything as far as identifying a pitch.
 
Oct 22, 2009
1,527
0
PA
Her follow through is not optimal, since she pulls her arm straight up instead of following through accross her body. I know she is Jenny Finch but her mechanics are not perfect.

Interesting that you should say this. Doug Finch definitely advocated the bringing the hand to the right ear during the follow through as proper, not across the body. He said that a medical study showed that Jennie's mechanics were in the one half of one percent of pitchers with "perfect" mechanics. I didn't necessarily buy it, but then again, my daughter is no Jennie Finch so who am I to say he's wrong?!
 

Ken Krause

Administrator
Admin
May 7, 2008
3,906
113
Mundelein, IL
Getting back to the original question, I believe the shoulder muscles pull the upper arm down until you get to about the rib cage. When that happens, the elbow leads and the hand/ball trail behind.

Once the upper arm is at the rib cage, the forearm muscles engage to pull the ball through the release zone as part of the whip. Assuming the wrist stays loose (as it should) it has a very fast snap automatically at the right time, providing both speed and high/low accuracy.

So it's pull, then pull. No pushing allowed or needed. Pushing will slow the arm (and the pitch). It's perfectly safe, and if the body is opened at the top of the circle, and remains pretty much open until the arm passes the hip you're allowing the joints, especially the shoulder, to work the way they're designed.
 
May 4, 2009
874
18
Baltimore
I was hoping to get more replies from people who were there to get there take on what was said. I actually sat threw his station two and a half times. I have some video of Jennie pitching during the clinic, but the quality isn't very good.

I'll try to clairfy on the push thing. Doug demonstrated holding the ball at the 3:00 position with his hand on top of the ball, and said that was the proper position and a "natural motion". This put the least stress on the shoulder. At the same position, he then moved his hand more under the ball to demonstrate the improper position, which puts more stress on the shoulder. What happens after 3:00 in realtime, for me anyway, is hard to say.

Halskinner: To clarify the "style" statement. Doug never called it "his style". What I should have said was the style he was demonstrating.

Hillhouse: Do you know Frank Keating? I think he said you pitched for the team he sponsers, Keating's Fitness out of Wilkes-Barre, PA. I think maybe during a trournament in Canada??

You can't be in men's fastpitch and not know Frank Keating. Good player and sponsor.
 
May 4, 2009
874
18
Baltimore
Interesting that you should say this. Doug Finch definitely advocated the bringing the hand to the right ear during the follow through as proper, not across the body. He said that a medical study showed that Jennie's mechanics were in the one half of one percent of pitchers with "perfect" mechanics. I didn't necessarily buy it, but then again, my daughter is no Jennie Finch so who am I to say he's wrong?!

Jennie Finch is a great pitcher. Her follow through is not optimal. Just because she does it does not make it correct. Remember, she was taught by her dad. So if he says it is good, she would have done it. One thing she has that a lot of other girls don't, is a large body that can to some extent make up for deficiencies in mechanics.
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,390
113
Not enuf.. Yes, I know Frank very well. We were not only teammates but are good friends. I pitched for his team for 2 years and we remain close. Now I enjoy pitching against his team. :)

I didn't hear Finch's speech so it's hard for me to comment too much. But, I'm not sure I understand how anyone can get much elbow whip if the hand is on top of the ball at 3:00. For what it's worth, and we all have our opinions, I think Jennie Finch's mechanics are the least optimal of the 3 National team pitchers. She's tall, does throw somewhat hard and sells a lot of USA softball Merchandise. That goes a long way. As I've said before, I've only spoke to Finch 1 time in my life (Doug Finch) and he seems nice. And I don't want to form much of an opinion without hearing him say it directly but, based on what I'm reading, I don't know of any elite pitcher who does these things.

The Jennie clip here is a riseball. But based on her mechanics and what I see, she is not getting back spin. Her spin would have too much sidespin (almost like a curve) for my taste.

Bill
 

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