More confused than ever

[Not_Enuf_Mustard]

I attended the Jennie Finch Softball Extravaganza this past Sunday in Flemington, NJ. Jennie Finch, Andrea Duran, Leah O'Brien-Amico and Jennie's dad Doug were there. My girls had a great time, learned a little and had a blast meeting the former Olympians.

Doug Finch had his own station where he spoke about pitching and using proper mechanics. I've read here on this forum and in several books that you should be "pulling the ball down" during the downward portion of the motion, not "pushing it down." Meaning hand under the ball not on top. Mr. Finch was adamant that this is incorrect and has the data to back it up. He said this is how shoulders and elbows are injured.

If you watch the slow motion video clip of Sarah Pauly and Yukiko Ueno in this forum you can clearly see they pull the ball down. Watching Jennie, pitch in person, she pushes it.

Has anyone heard of either styles being more prone to causing injuries?

I have a U12 and a U10 daugher who both pitch and want to continue to take lessons and progress. I just want to be sure they are learning the proper technique. Right now they are both using the motion Doug Finch recommends.

Disclaimer: I'm not looking to start any kind of riff with this forum and Doug Finch. He really seemed to be concerned with the safety of the girls and said he had the data to back up his claim that his style is safer. Plus he seemed like a nice guy.

 

[halskinner]

I attended the Jennie Finch Softball Extravaganza this past Sunday in Flemington, NJ. Jennie Finch, Andrea Duran, Leah O'Brien-Amico and Jennie's dad Doug were there. My girls had a great time, learned a little and had a blast meeting the former Olympians.

Doug Finch had his own station where he spoke about pitching and using proper mechanics. I've read here on this forum and in several books that you should be "pulling the ball down" during the downward portion of the motion, not "pushing it down." Meaning hand under the ball not on top. Mr. Finch was adamant that this is incorrect and has the data to back it up. He said this is how shoulders and elbows are injured.

If you watch the slow motion video clip of Sarah Pauly and Yukiko Ueno in this forum you can clearly see they pull the ball down. Watching Jennie, pitch in person, she pushes it.

Has anyone heard of either styles being more prone to causing injuries?

I have a U12 and a U10 daugher who both pitch and want to continue to take lessons and progress. I just want to be sure they are learning the proper technique. Right now they are both using the motion Doug Finch recommends.

Disclaimer: I'm not looking to start any kind of riff with this forum and Doug Finch. He really seemed to be concerned with the safety of the girls and said he had the data to back up his claim that his style is safer. Plus he seemed like a nice guy.

---------------------------------------------------------

'his style is safer'. Were those his exact words; his style???

I have heard of the Lisa Fernandez style, the Michelle Smith style and even the Bill Hillhouse style.

Do I detect a new pitching book or DVD about to hit the market?


As I undestand it, anything brought up to you, either from in front or the rear, must be pulled toward your body. It can then be pushed away from your body, either ahead of you or behind you.

If you have any forward momentum AT ALL, the windmill circle is certainly NOT a 'circle'. It is closer to an oval than a circle. It it is only a circle if you do not move your feet.

It should be interesting to see where the dividing line between pulling and pushing a ball is defined when the ball is behind you from 12:00 on.

Is it the hand position on the ball that they are using for their definition?

THIS SHOULD BE INTERESTING.

 

[Mark H]

Windmill

Of these three I think Cat and Ueno are more efficient in their motion. Can't see Ueno's hand position behind the body but it does look like Finch turns her hand over sooner than Cat. Doesn't make sense to me from the whipping loop stand point and Board's internal rotation explanation. I vote do it like Cat.

 

[Slappersam55]

I think the confusion comes from the fact that a PC might teach "push down" with the palm behind the ball in relationship to the catcher but in reality its impossible to maintain those mechanics throughout the full swing. Try it for yourself. Pitching hand to your side, thumb on top of ball pointing to catcher. Rotate arm up and your shoulder and arm naturally rotate the thumb to 1B at 12:00 position. Continue to 3:00 (arm directly behind you) and the thumb wants to be pointing towards the sky. IMO, it is from here (3:00 - 6:00 release) that some PCs and Mr. Finch would like to have the palm behind the ball "pushing down"). My DD is taught this technique IN THEORY but in reality I believe she is actually "pulling down" more than we would think. The bottom line is that we need to videotape our pitchers to see what is actually going on. This is my next project.

 

[PA SB Dad]

My daughter and I were also at that clinic last Sunday (she loved it by the way). I came away less than impressed by Doug Finch's presentation. Not to bash him, but I thought he was somewhat self-promoting and out to sell his contraption. One thing I got from his presentation was not to have the hand "under" the ball when the arm is at 3 o'clock - that the ball should be "on top" of the ball at that point in the arm circle. My impression is that is what happens naturally anyway, at least watching my daughter throw a fastball, so I was not sure what he was talking about.

So I went on his website and looked at the "medical studies" he cites to support his hypothesis regarding proper windmill mechanics. The problem is, none of the studies he cites actually describes what proper mechanics are. He said over and over in his presentation that the technique he advocates was backed by "medical studies". The problem is I see none of any relevance to pitching mechanics. They only indicate that joints respond to stress, and that joint remodelling occurs in response to stress - and therefore the Finch Windmill will "remold" the joint structure to accommodate the overhand and underhand throwing motions. There is nothing regarding "proper mechanics" of the motion itself.

He does have one study from Penn State in which pitchers did increase their speed by an average of 3.25 mph after two weeks, but again it does not describe the pitchers' mechanics and whether there was any correction of the pitchers' mechanics to what he describes as "proper". He said himself that 1/2 of 1 percent of all pitchers in the US use proper mechanics, so I would take that to mean that even a pitcher with improper mechanics (the other 99.5%) might improve their speed. There are medical studies that have looked at windmill mechanics, unfortunately I do not have access to the online articles (and have no desire to pay the $35 for 24 hour access to the articles!) and he does not cite them in support of his invention.

 

[BoardMember]

Finch Push?........

If this is what Doug calls "pushing the ball", then we need to redefine "pushing"...........

 

[Hillhouse]

I've spoken to Doug Finch once in my life. He seemed like a very nice guy. So I don't want this to come out wrong but, aside from Jenny being his daughter, I'd love to know where his "qualifications" come from. Did he demonstrate this technique of his for you? I would absolutely LOVE to see how someone with their hand on top of the ball can get under the ball to make it spin for a rise. I would pay my own almost anything and go almost anywhere if he would demonstrate all of this for me so I could be a better pitcher.

I realize in some cases it's just semantics. But, pitching styles are difficult to teach. Be leery of anyone trying to cookie cutter your kid and make them pitch with the same exact motion as they use. All too often people confuse the necessary movements with the unnecessary ones.

Bill

 

[CoachFP]

If this is what Doug calls "pushing the ball", then we need to redefine "pushing"...........

First off, this is a riseball, so her hand is under the ball as it should be. Jennie Finch does not throw that great of a drop ball, so maybe Doug taught her something that doesn't work all that well.

 

[coachdan]

As boardmember says finch is not pushing the ball in provided clip. Notice the hand is under the ballwhen she comes into release, no way she is pushing the ball?

 

[BLB]

Doug Finch told a good friend of mine a couple of years ago that he emphazises as much hip rotation as possible, to the point of almost facing the catcher at release. This is certainly not the case with his daughter who hardly turns her hips. Also, if the above clip is an attempt to throw a rise ball then it is a poor attempt or the video clip is so bad that my eyes are seeing things. At the exact moment of release, the palm of the hand is almost facing the catcher. If the ball rolls off the side of the fingers then this would result in a bullet spin and not a rise ball. This could be a curve ball at best or a drop ball IMO.