inside out hitting

[eddie35]

Mark,
Can I call you? If i can please email me your number.
eamescua3535@sbcglobal.net

 

[RayR]

MTS,
The photo you post of Caitlin Benyi is the end result as to what i am trying to accomplish when i teach. That swing to me looks close to perfect.

I might be wrong but what i see is a linear first move, she loads then moves foreward. On her load i see her loading the back scapula which i try to teach when she moves foreward i see a good first move with the lead elbow moving foreward about 2 inches and then the elbow starts to rotate around. She also get up on her back toe.

I also do not like the fence drill becaue i believe it makes a hitter lose connection. As far as the top hand reversed on the bat i like this drill when we work on extension with the bottom hand. I believe the top hand in the swing process goes along for the ride, and does not push the bat through. I have worked hard to learn as much about the swing as i can. My foundation about the swing comes from Steve Englishbey and also a high level hitting coach out of Ohio as well as ifubuiltit. If i have missed anything please let me know i am also willing to listen and learn more.

I use many of Steve's drills and respect Dana's (Ifubuildit) opinion as well.

My focus for the most part is getting players to use their upper torso (scaps) independently of the rest of the torso. I am not saying they don't use their hips or torso. There is a sequence to this that has to be learned as well.

This isn't easy, but the front elbow has to remain locked at the start of the swing to be able to use the scaps effectively.

If the front elbow makes any kind of flexion/extension move at the start the swing will powered mostly by the arms, IMO.

 

[ifubuildit]

Front elbow action.

This is one of the ideas about swinging a bat that can be misinterpreted in the swing process. If we can all agree that the swing starts from the ground up then the front elbow action does not occur until after the hips and core start turning.

I see no problem in putting focus on front elbow action. As long as it's done within the proper sequence of the swing. Which is what I think MTS is alluding to with his post.

I think this idea of front elbow action originated with Don Slaught and if I remember correctly it's even mentioned in the right view Pro material. I do not endorse it as the initial move to be performed at the start of the swing. There are some that do believe that this should be the initial move to start the swing any.

My personal opinion is that if you initiate movement with front elbow at the start of the swing your more likely to disconnect the swing prior to contact.

Dana

 

[Mark H]

If we can all agree that the swing starts from the ground up

Speaking of at the start of the load, the unload or...? Funny how long we could talk about something seemingly so simple. I don't believe Dixon would have agreed with you.

My personal opinion is that if you initiate movement with front elbow at the start of the swing your more likely to disconnect the swing prior to contact.

Dana

Speaking of the start of the unload?

 

[ifubuildit]

Speaking of at the start of the load, the unload or...? Funny how long we could talk about something seemingly so simple. I don't believe Dixon would have agreed with you.

Speaking from the point of footplant which would begin rotation.



Speaking of the start of the unload?

From the start of the unload which would be the stride.

 

[Mark H]

During the stride I still see the hands loading back/scap loading and I still see vertical loading and increasing separation between the pelvis and upper torso so I'd describe unloading as beginning at heel plant.

As relates to unloading/the kinetic chain sequence, have you yet read Jim Dixon's book?

 

[ifubuildit]

Unloading

Mark,

Dont disagree with your description of what occurs during the stride. My point here is that even SE acknowldges that the hips will start to unload during the stride while all those other things you mention are happening. I see that in many clips and that would be before foot plant.

I have not read Dixons book. Have tried to find it many times but without success. I keep hearing his son is selling them but I cant keep track of him. I am wondering now that he has his own hitting vids coming out if it will be on his site.

I would be interested in reading it.

Dana

 

[Mark H]

Ask your local library to find it for you. They will bring it in from somewhere. Anyway, I think most people would agree if they were standing in front of each other demonstrating. I think Marc helped clear it up for me when he said movements when in touch with the ground use the ground contact for an anchor. Movements when not in contact with the ground use the COG for the anchor (may have butchered that paraphrase) Certainly during the stride (yes the pelvis is unloading in one sense but loading against the upper torso in another) the ground is the anchor and while the primary muscles accomplishing this are in the upper thigh and pelvis, it could be argued this starts from the ground up in a sense. Once the pelvis has shifted and turned/forward by turning and the swing itself starts, there isn't time for the ground to act as the anchor and the kinetic chain starts with the large and proximal/the upper thighs to mid torso and moves to the small and distal/hands etc. During this 4 to 5 30ths of a second, I would argue the COG is the anchor, at least to a great extent. In this sense, for this part of the swing it could be, should be argued the swing moves from the middle out - upward, downward and outward. This is what the illustrations in Jim's book make so clear. My interpretive physics may be argued and my wording may be disagreed with but I'm pretty certain of the overall movement analysis.

 

[eddie35]

Here we go again

Hey Mark and board,


i agree with you when you say durning the stride the hands are seperating or should i say going to a neg move or scap loading. But i believe or should i say i teach , when we stride we stride to toe touch we touch down on the inside edge of the big toe of the lead foot. When we get to that point of the swing i try to get my players to have their weight 50/50. more weight comes foreward as we shift more weight from back to front So i am clear on this, iam saying when we went to a neg move to toe touch we are going foreward from back to front. And as our heal drops and at the same time our back elbow drops or starts to slot our lead elbow is making a good first of about 2 inches towards the pitcher this will ensure a correct hand path of hands inside the ball. Once the the heal drops and elbow slots and lead elbow went foreward 2 inches, the lead elbow then starts to rotate up and around the body. I believe in a rotional swing, from what i see i just think the first part of the swing is back to front.

Here is a clip of Manny what do you think? I use this board as a learning tool for me so guys feel free to fire away, believe me nothing is taken personnel.
YouTube - The mechanics of a major leage swing

 

[RayR]

Hey Mark and board,


i agree with you when you say durning the stride the hands are seperating or should i say going to a neg move or scap loading. But i believe or should i say i teach , when we stride we stride to toe touch we touch down on the inside edge of the big toe of the lead foot. When we get to that point of the swing i try to get my players to have their weight 50/50. more weight comes foreward as we shift more weight from back to front So i am clear on this, iam saying when we went to a neg move to toe touch we are going foreward from back to front. And as our heal drops and at the same time our back elbow drops or starts to slot our lead elbow is making a good first of about 2 inches towards the pitcher this will ensure a correct hand path of hands inside the ball. Once the the heal drops and elbow slots and lead elbow went foreward 2 inches, the lead elbow then starts to rotate up and around the body. I believe in a rotional swing, from what i see i just think the first part of the swing is back to front.

Here is a clip of Manny what do you think? I use this board as a learning tool for me so guys feel free to fire away, believe me nothing is taken personnel.
YouTube - The mechanics of a major leage swing

Hey Eddie,

The lead elbow thing:

Is the initial move to the ball, to the contact point, to the pitcher, or to CF? I know you said to the ball, but how does the student take it to mean. And I think each scenario will produce a different swing path.

Is the front elbow starting position something you teach? What if the front elbow is too low or too high? Each of these positions will definitely affect the swing plane.

Do you teach the front elbow flexing or is the front arm rigid when making this move? Obviously, these are 2 wildly different approaches. But, IMO I think depending on pitch location it should be a combination if the player knows the real underlying movement.

I dont see the best hitters doing this move on EVERY swing. I believe it is an adjustment to pitch location (the pure elbow jut). I guess you will have to prove to me they do.

Now, if you saying the elbow and front shoulder blade are tightly linked and both move as part of your teaching then I am all in

With this move I could put you on a tee up tight to the body (severe inside pitch) and having the tee deep in the zone and with the move I just described get you to make good contact without pushing away from the tee to make room. (Englishbey drill, BTW)

Chase Utley demonstrating inside and outside pitch locations

Outside

Inside pitch hit to opposite field

Before anyone says I am using baseball clips for a softball board - here is Kristen Rivera showing the same type of movement

Photo 5 of 16, Fastpitch

Here is a side view of Rivera that you can scroll through frame by frame. Look for the elbow and shoulder (blade) locked and moving together to get to an inside pitch. The elbow is not moving 2-4" forward on its own by flexing.

MPEG4 8 of 16, Fastpitch