Illegal pitchs, coaches and umpires...what's the solution?

[Bishop]

The survey thread really got my hackles up but I didn't want to derail that thread.

For the last 2 years I've been an assistant coach for a 10u travel team that my daughter plays on. Horrific pitching mechanics are pretty common with many of the teams we play against. Illegal pitches are pretty common most notably crow hops, some of them as blatant as 4 - 6 inches of air under both feet during the stride. 2 years of games, probably 10 or more pitchers who never threw a legal pitch in any game I ever watched them play and only 1 time did I see an umpire start calling IP's. That time was with the most blatant pitcher with a really impressive 6inch vertical delivery. They only started calling her on it the second day of elimination play at a tourney. Most likely after the UIC got an ear full from some rather unhappy coaches who were put out of a tournament in a game thier kids didn't recieve a single legal pitch.

Early in the first year I asked a couple of the umps about the lack of IP calls when it was so obvious the pitcher wasn't even close to being legal. The response was this is 10u so we aren't to strict on that. I don't agree with it but understand that view point. Some of the kids at 10u are first year pitchers and the experience of pitching a game might be benificial. I went and watched a 12u ASA class A tournament earlier this month. The ace pitcher on the team that won the tournament replanted on every pitch she threw for 2 games. Not one call for an IP. I guess it's not just a 10u thing around here.

In the other thread it's clear that there are plenty of pitchers who have gone for years with illegal pitching mechanics and haven't recieved enough pressure from officals and coaches to fix the problem. What is the solution to the problem? Is it a problem?

Opinions?

 

[Amy in AZ.]

I don't move on, until the replant is solved. Many times the student leaves for a coach that just lets them do "whatever." You can watch 12U all day long here and see awful mechanics.

 

[mudbug]

It is only a problem if it is giving a pitcher or team an advantage. The spirit of the rules in place are to prevent a pitcher from gaining an advantage. However if both pitchers are doing it, moderately, there is no advantage.

The other problem is that, as you see, by watching videos sometimes you need to watch it in slow motion, and several times to decide what is actually happening. An ump cant do that in a game. There are much more important things happening that they must watch for, not if the pitchers toe leaves the ground or not, or did they actually push off after they landed?

The biggest thing is, if you call it once, you better be prepared to call it EVERY time. Period. You cannot selectively enforce rules, because that can change the outcome of a game. And unfortunately, an ump cant do that, they cant spend the whole game intensely watching the pitchers freaking feet. So what ump wants to open THAT can of worms? You got it, nobody. They may warn a pitcher once or twice, but they really, really, dont want to call it, it invites too many problems.

Basically, the rules arent enforceable unless the violations are flagrant. But you must have the rules , or the violations would be taken to the extreme.

Its kind of like speeding on the interstate. Speed limit is 70, who will write you a ticket for 71, 72? Its obviously illegal. But theyd have to stop everyone, lots of inadvertent speeders too, borderline cases argued in court. There are times they might, but normally would just let it go. But say 77, 78, 79, those will get you a ticket. They are more flagrant , intentional violations.

Would you want the police to write tickets for 70.5 or 71 mph in a 70 zone? If not why would you want them to call minor pitching infractions. The world is seldom as black-white as the printed rules are.

Now other IP violations are easier, more rigidly defined technical, they will call those.

 

[Bishop]

I'm with you there Amy. Luckly the organization I coach with takes the long view and really beats the mantra 'mechanics first' from the top down. That applies to pitching, throwing, hitting and fielding. We have coaches that get short sighted every once in a while focusing on this seasons record rather than doing what is best for the players over the long haul. That gets corrected in a hurry fortunatly. I'm certain that's one of the factors that keeps our organisation healthy and improving.

Does it get better in 14u? Players in that age range are getting into high school ages. Or can I expect to hear, "Well, it's just JV so we aren't to strict on that". Until 16u/varsity ball?

 

[Coach Al]

I believe this problem starts out with poor coaching. Someone's parent, who knows a little about the game, becomes a coach and gets the "I know this game" attitude. I should know, I was one of them. However, I went out and read, studied. watched, attended and ask every way I could to make myself. better. Most don't. As for the inconsistency of umpires, some of them forget the rules, on purpose. They get lazy, forget about the integrity of the game and would rather let it go then get into a hassle. If you watch the Women's College World Series last year, in one game a pitcher was constantly landing her stride foot well outside the pitching lane. This should of been called an illegal pitch but wasn't. The coach went out and asked the plate umpire why it wasn't being called illegal. Her answer, I have enough trouble calling balls and strikes without having to call that too.What has to happen is the governing bodies (ASA,NSA, etc.) have to tell these umpires if they don't enforce the rules, they will pull their certification. FAT CHANCE!

 

[Bishop]

Thanks for the replies Mudbug and Al. That was pretty much my take on it. It's going to take a fix from the governing bodies but since they are in a popularity contest of sorts to stay alive a hard line adherance to a commonly broken or exploited rule could be counter productive to thier goals. It is what it is.

On the clueless coach thing. I am one. Luckly I get to coach with people who know what they are doing and are enthusiastic about sharing the knowledge. Hopefully in a couple more years I'll have earned the title that has been handed to me.

 

[tojo]

A lot of illegal pitchers end up learning the hard way. I've seen it many times, the team gets in a crucial game and the pitcher is called for an illegal pitch. She tries to adjust and her timing is disrupted and she can't throw a strike and begins to walk batter after batter.It should be called because it is illegal. From my own experience, my DD was playing a local team and she was called for an illegal pitch for licking her finger and touching the ball before she wiped her fingers, but the other pitcher was crow hopping. I asked the ump why he called an illegal pitch on my DD and not the other team's pitcher. He said the other pitcher was not gaining an advantage.It was so dry that day and my DD licked her fingers so she could hold the ball.Did she gain more of an advantage with a single lick or did the pitcher that crow hopped the whole game? If its' illegal, it should be called, period.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

Bishop, No. I do not feel that it gets better. Those are senior girls, in the videos. But, if they are wanting to pitch in college, they need some help and then, new videos.

A re-plant is one of those softball motions, that I can hear. Of course, an umpire can't call something that he hears and doesn't see, but after so long you begin to see the pitchers rhythm and it is funky instead of smooth.

 

[Dave D]

I personally love the "she's not gaining advantage" take from umpires. If she can't throw legally, then she must be gaining advantage from throwing illegally. Duh.

Sorry I didn't see this thread before I unloaded on the other one about this exact topic.

 

[FPump]

I personally love the "she's not gaining advantage" take from umpires. If she can't throw legally, then she must be gaining advantage from throwing illegally. Duh.

Sorry I didn't see this thread before I unloaded on the other one about this exact topic.

Dave, If you are a coach or a manager, you should never have to accept that kind of rational from an umpire when discussing an IP. Providing you're having a quiet one on one with the ump (not yelling from the bench or coach's box or otherwise showing him/her up); their reply should be something along the lines...."when we (meaning the crew) clearly see her throw an illegal pitch
we'll call it."
She's not gaining an advantage is not an option for an umpire not to call an IP. It's either legal or it's illegal. There is no umpire discretion. Now two things, and I think that many times here's where the problems/issues arise:

1) You have coaches/managers who are convinced that in their mind the other team's pitcher is illegal. They know, without a doubt, what constitutes an IP. Many times they are are truly convinced the pitcher is illegal, and other time their just trying to "work" the umpires. BTW...that doesn't making them bad gays/gals...it's just part of the business.
2) The pitcher is illegal, and the umpire's can't/won't call it. Reason??? (and many have been stated here)....they lack the guts to call it. So now they give the "token" IP call to appease the other team. Bad umpiring plain and simple.

A good umpire will know the IP rule for the rule set they're working cold. When questioned a good umpire will give a coach an answer as to why the pitch was called an IP (if it was called on your pitcher), or if you (properly) raise a concern about what you feel might be an IP, BY USING LANGUAGE OUT OF THE RULE BOOK. That's the type of ump who you can be assured has the guts to call an IP when they see it.