Illegal pitchs, coaches and umpires...what's the solution?

[goosesdad1]

It is only a problem if it is giving a pitcher or team an advantage. The spirit of the rules in place are to prevent a pitcher from gaining an advantage. However if both pitchers are doing it, moderately, there is no advantage.

The other problem is that, as you see, by watching videos sometimes you need to watch it in slow motion, and several times to decide what is actually happening. An ump cant do that in a game. There are much more important things happening that they must watch for, not if the pitchers toe leaves the ground or not, or did they actually push off after they landed?

The biggest thing is, if you call it once, you better be prepared to call it EVERY time. Period. You cannot selectively enforce rules, because that can change the outcome of a game. And unfortunately, an ump cant do that, they cant spend the whole game intensely watching the pitchers freaking feet. So what ump wants to open THAT can of worms? You got it, nobody. They may warn a pitcher once or twice, but they really, really, dont want to call it, it invites too many problems.

Basically, the rules arent enforceable unless the violations are flagrant. But you must have the rules , or the violations would be taken to the extreme.

Its kind of like speeding on the interstate. Speed limit is 70, who will write you a ticket for 71, 72? Its obviously illegal. But theyd have to stop everyone, lots of inadvertent speeders too, borderline cases argued in court. There are times they might, but normally would just let it go. But say 77, 78, 79, those will get you a ticket. They are more flagrant , intentional violations.

Would you want the police to write tickets for 70.5 or 71 mph in a 70 zone? If not why would you want them to call minor pitching infractions. The world is seldom as black-white as the printed rules are.

Now other IP violations are easier, more rigidly defined technical, they will call those.

Thank you Mudbug for bringing reason into the discussion.

I my view, which is the naked eye in real time, I still don't see an illegal pitch in the videos. I have attached an image of an illegal pitch. In slow motion these girls are replanting, but I don't see any advantage. In fact what I see is them stopping their forward momentum they gain from their initial push. They are all spread out with their pivot foot behind them and their arms at the top of or beyond the top of their circle in slow motion. I am not convinced that these pitchers are gaining any advantage at all with their deliveries. I would need to see a study done with speed guns to see if these types of pitchers with flawed mechanics don't actually pick up speed when they push off properly.

Now what I think I am reading is that there are some of you advocating that an umpire calls something that he or she can't actually see but just looks funky instead. In other words if it looks funky, then the pitcher must be gaining some unfair advantage. There is night and day difference between what these pitchers are doing and what the pitcher in the picture is doing.
Again, I would have to be shown that these pitchers are actually faster pitching this way than with proper mechanics.

Here is how I have seen illegal pitches handled at a recent NCAA Div 1 tournament in Palm Springs:

Cal vs. San Diego State

San Diego State coach is complaining about Cal pitcher illegal pitch. 1st base ump eventually calls illegal pitch with no runners on and a ball is called.

Cal gets up to bat an 1st base ump calls illegal pitch with runner on first. Runner gets 2nd base. Runner at second is advanced to 3rd. Another illegal pitch is called on San Diego's pitcher and a run comes home. This was the end of the illegal pitch complaints by San Diego coach.

Washington vs. Fresno State

U of Washington and Canadian Olympian is pitching. Between innings, 1st base ump comes up and discusses something with pitcher while looking at the mound. After first pitch, an illegal pitch is called. Pitcher smiles and then continues to dominate after making an apparent change.

In the first game, the illegal pitch complaints and calls, absolutely ruined what, up to that point , was a great game.

In the second game, the apparent illegal pitches didn't seem to make a difference in the pitcher's dominance.

I do agree that kids need to be taught proper mechanincs.

I am not convinced that the kids in the videos would not pitch faster with proper mechanincs.

I believe that this focus on illegal pitches which may or may not be detected with the naked eye, takes away from the game on the field, and often amounts to losing by a balk in baseball which is almost unheard of but seems to be part of softball.

Umpires have to use judgement all the time. Let's hope they use it in the case of illegal pitches. Unless it's blatant, the advantage the pitcher may be getting is minimal, and the flawed mechanics may actually be holding them back.

 

[halskinner]

The answer to this problem is simple; READ YOUR RULEBOOKS!

Association rulebooks make it VERY clear that they are only a guidebook. They are only set in stone for national qualifiers and national tournaments.

Any League commissioner or UIC for the league, OR any tournament director or UIC has the authority to add, delete or amend any rule they see fit for their leagues or tourneys.

The last thing any umpire wants to do is say so,ething that might discourage a very young player, especially a pitcher. 10u and younger is considered the learning ages. 12u and older they are not considered to be learners. They are expected to know the rules and they are enforced more strictly. Give the blues a break, they are doing the right thing.

If the tournament director is not going to enforce any rules, they should notify all before accepting the team's money. That hardly ever happens.

 

[Jojo]

It is only a problem if it is giving a pitcher or team an advantage. The spirit of the rules in place are to prevent a pitcher from gaining an advantage. However if both pitchers are doing it, moderately, there is no advantage.

When my DD was younger she had a terrible crow hop problem that was a bear to fix, hours and hours and hours, but she finally corrected it.
Crow hopping pitchers became her pet peeve because she spent the hours fixing it why don't they?
So one game in college the other team's pitcher was crow hopping up a storm. The coach called it to the umps attention but to no avail he wasn't going there.
Well not only could my DD fix a crow hop, she could create one as well, as big if not bigger than the other pitcher.
She explained she definitely gets a big advantage when she crow hops/replants and she wasn't about to "handicap" herself in this situation, time to level the playing field, because in this game, crow hopping was a legal delivery.

 

[WiZ]

Michigan played 2 games yesterday in Cali and there were a total of 12 illegal pitches called (some crow hopping and some not having both feet on the rubber). The majority were done by their opponents but even a few called against them.

 

[goosesdad1]

yeah, I was on the other fields. I could see the scoreboard and it looked like both teams were in double digits at the Michigan vs. UNLV game. I wonder if the illegal pitch calls had an effect. I also saw a freshman for DePaul go against Arizona St. The DePaul pitcher had a "funky" type delivery that may have been a crow hop. No illegal pitches called. Arizona St. pounded her. The pitchers who had solid mechanics, i.e. strong leap and toe drag, dominated. Also seemed to throw much harder, but I don't know I didn't have or see a gun out there.

 

[PEPPERS]

My daughter's pitching coach is insistent on not crow hopping. He advised that over time it leads to injury and as you had advised on the form it is against the rules. He has had pitches throwing in the mid 60's without the aid of crow hopping.

Her previous coach taught crow hopping, his thing was the closer you could jump to the bater the less reaction time the batter had to react to the pitch. His pitchers were great at 40 feet, but have had problems at 43 in college. We changed after a year with this coach because my daughter after a year showed no improvement.

 

[Dave D]

I love this thread, because this has been a topic on the top of my mind for such a long time. Let me tell the story of the HS game I watched just last Friday. One pitcher is blatantly replanting, even sliding her foot out to the side when she replants. With no prompting from the opposing coach (a first in my book), base umpire calls at least 7 iPs in first inning, resulting in a run for the home team. From that point forward, even though the pitcher doesn't change her motion even one little bet, NOT ANOTHER IP IS CALLED FOR THE REST OF THE GAME. I was incredulous. I happen to know the umpire, and approached him in a friendly way after the game to ask why he had stopped calling IPs. He said that he thought the girl wasn't grievously illegal, so he thought that the pitcher had been "punished enough" at the point where it cost her a run. Hmm.


FP ump--sorry it took me so long to get back to your comment on my earlier post. I have definitely learned that quiet conversations on the side or between innings are the best, but too many tourney umps (and school ball umps) are reluctant to interrupt the flow of the game by calling multiple IPs. They just keep falling back on the old "she's not getting advantage" or "her toe is pointing down most of the time" arguments as a lame means of ending the conversation.

 

[shockcoach]

I argued with an umpire two years ago about a pitcher who was throwing illegal pitches. The PU told me that she wasn't gaining an advantage from it. I asked her if the rule book says that she has to gain an advantage from it in order for it to be an illegal pitch. PU told me, "Good point!" I got my the illegal pitch called.

I now coach 10U ball and I hold the attitude that you are not doing your pitcher justice by letting the pitch illegally. All of my pitchers pitch legally, theirs should too. However, at 10U I usually wait until in between innings and point it out to the umpire to just let the other coach know. Later in the season, I get a bit more stern in their enforcement of the rule.

 

[mudbug]

I love this thread, because this has been a topic on the top of my mind for such a long time. Let me tell the story of the HS game I watched just last Friday. One pitcher is blatantly replanting, even sliding her foot out to the side when she replants. With no prompting from the opposing coach (a first in my book), base umpire calls at least 7 iPs in first inning, resulting in a run for the home team. From that point forward, even though the pitcher doesn't change her motion even one little bet, NOT ANOTHER IP IS CALLED FOR THE REST OF THE GAME. I was incredulous. I happen to know the umpire, and approached him in a friendly way after the game to ask why he had stopped calling IPs. He said that he thought the girl wasn't grievously illegal, so he thought that the pitcher had been "punished enough" at the point where it cost her a run. Hmm.


FP ump--sorry it took me so long to get back to your comment on my earlier post. I have definitely learned that quiet conversations on the side or between innings are the best, but too many tourney umps (and school ball umps) are reluctant to interrupt the flow of the game by calling multiple IPs. They just keep falling back on the old "she's not getting advantage" or "her toe is pointing down most of the time" arguments as a lame means of ending the conversation.

When an ump decides when to call the IP, he is possibly affecting the outcome of the game. No different from deciding when to call a batter out at first or not on close plays.

You either call it, every single time, to the best of your ability, or you dont at all. Even warning, warning, and then finally calling it can change a game when it is finally called at innoportune time. An umpire is not supposed to iimpact a game that way at his discretion, but that is what commonly happens.

My opinion, is if you want to play softball, play it. Dont be too quick to encourage it to be turned it into a toe-dragging contest based on rule technicalities. If thats what you want, go start a toe-dragging competition. Let the umps decide whats reasonable and whats not. Honestly, if you could put a slo-mo video camera on the toe, would they always stay on the ground? No. Even coming 1/16" off the ground for 1/8" at the initial pushoff is still illegal under the written rules, but Id bet many who believe they dont, actually do, its really just a matter of how high, and how far, and how noticeable it is, not if it occurs. And dont forget the hole rule, which makes it impossible to apply with any precision anyway. How close can an ump eyeball the level plane of the ground from 45 ft away from his perspective? within an inch? Probably not.

To my simple mind, it seems that the issue is really about where the reasonable place to call it is, not if it occurs.

 

[goosesdad1]

With you again MB. Think about this-

Extremely well played game in the second inning. Pitcher loads the bases after giving up a hit and two walks. She gets two outs on grounders. The next batter rips a line shot to the right field gap. Center fielder makes a full blown diving catch and comes down hard but hangs on to the ball. Everyone is amazed at both the hit and the catch. But wait...hold on...

The field ump has the arm out for illegal pitch. A ball is awarded and the runners all move up a base.

Guess the batter would have hit it out if the pitcher kept her toe down???