How do you throw a RISEBALL?

[BLB]

"How do you throw a RISEBALL?"

Has anyone given any info on the original question? Rick has given a couple of effective drills that pitchers can use to help develop proper hand orientation at release and proper spin direction. Out of 9 pages of posts, is that it?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Yes smooth transition with a break of 7" in the last .08 seconds. Or are not seeing it?

What you showed (pitch in 'red' below) was a pitch profile in which the ball went from 1.8ft to 2.8ft in the first 0.19 seconds and then went from 2.8ft to 1.9ft in the remaining half of the pitch. In other words the ball went up 12 inches and then came down 10.8 inches. The transition was smooth.

 

[riseball]

"How do you throw a RISEBALL?"

Has anyone given any info on the original question? Rick has given a couple of effective drills that pitchers can use to help develop proper hand orientation at release and proper spin direction. Out of 9 pages of posts, is that it?

True. Very true. Seems we got into the weeds at 2:08AM yesterday.

 

[pobguy]

I would LOVE to bring my DD to a place that has facilities to track & record trajectories. I do not have those facilities. I am trying to get in the door on an old D3 head coach DD used to have as a batting coach that I heard has some of this stuff but have not been able to connect yet.

The moment I do get a chance and it shows that after all the different pitcher riseballs that I have caught that DD's doesn't have this "something different" with the last third of the pitch I will be the first to swallow my pride and crawl back here and admit that this is not a physical abnormality (of the balls trajectory) and just a mental phenomenon.

As I have mentioned before in other threads, I DO have actual trajectory data from the 2011 WCWS. None of the data I have analyzed, over 1500 pitches, shows evidence for the effect you are describing. If I open the discussion to include baseballs thrown in MLB, the number of pitches I have analyzed is considerably larger, in the hundreds of thousands. For a handful of these pitches, there might be evidence for unusual behavior. But most certainly not for the vast majority of pitches. Now, one can theorize all one wants, but as an experimental physicist, I always defer to good data.

 

[riseball]

Still in the weeds.

 

[RubberBiscuit]

As I have mentioned before in other threads, I DO have actual trajectory data from the 2011 WCWS. None of the data I have analyzed, over 1500 pitches, shows evidence for the effect you are describing. If I open the discussion to include baseballs thrown in MLB, the number of pitches I have analyzed is considerably larger, in the hundreds of thousands. For a handful of these pitches, there might be evidence for unusual behavior. But most certainly not for the vast majority of pitches. Now, one can theorize all one wants, but as an experimental physicist, I always defer to good data.

How many different pitchers data do you have for softball?

 

[RubberBiscuit]

As I have mentioned before in other threads, I DO have actual trajectory data from the 2011 WCWS. None of the data I have analyzed, over 1500 pitches, shows evidence for the effect you are describing. If I open the discussion to include baseballs thrown in MLB, the number of pitches I have analyzed is considerably larger, in the hundreds of thousands. For a handful of these pitches, there might be evidence for unusual behavior. But most certainly not for the vast majority of pitches. Now, one can theorize all one wants, but as an experimental physicist, I always defer to good data.

So you are saying that your data is in direct contrast to MIT's data and that your data is accurate and MIT's is not?

 

[Balls]

How do you throw a RISEBALL?

13U daughter is pretty good. Good velocity in the low/mid 50's. Good control. Command of both sides of plate. Nice change and effective drop. Ready for...THE RISE.

From those who have succeeded teaching and throwing the rise how do you throw it. We've heard turning a door knob and screwing in a light but that does not seem to match the recent slo-mo posted here on DFP. I don't want to lead her down the wrong path with techniques that are not true even though a lot of people my say them (In other words i do not want the equivalent to Hello Elbow on the RISE).

How do you communicate the spin? In Sara Pauly clip in the RISEBALL SPIN thread she is not unscrewing a light bulb or turning a knob. She is internally rotating her wrist and removing all fingers from the ball except the index which gets the last push.

How much is posture and releasing later.

Would appreciate any help. It is the pitch she needs -

Hey Ihouser,

I have uploaded a video about how I throw my rise ball.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bLveQb4jSA&feature=youtu.be
A couple of things I didn't state in the clip.
The thumb needs to point behind the ball after release. If it points forward the ball will tunnel. (bullet spin)
I don't lean backwards to throw th pitch upwards I just adjust the release point slightly later.
An aggressive snap is required to keep the spin rate up.

Hope it helps.

 

[pobguy]

So you are saying that your data is in direct contrast to MIT's data and that your data is accurate and MIT's is not?

I have not seen the MIT data, so I can't comment on their accuracy. However, I can comment on the accuracy of the data I analyzed. The data come from the so-called PITCHf/x system, which has been used to track every pitch in MLB since the 2007 season. The system has been throughly studied by lots of people--including, but not exclusively, me. The position of the ball is measured to a precision of about 1/2" every 1/60 second. Within that level of precision, the trajectories are very smooth. The PITCHf/x cameras were set up for the ESPN telecast of the 2011 WCWS. I obtained the data from Sportvision, the company that developed the technology. I have data for 15 complete games (all but one of the tournament), amounting to about 1500 pitches from about a dozen different pitchers (some throwing more pitches than others).

The reason why the Reynold's Number argument does not work so well for pitched baseballs is that the pitch track is so short. Over that brief path, the ball does not lose enough speed to see any effects as the ball passes through the so-called "drag crisis". In fact, I tested this a few years ago with a simulation and found that the resulting trajectory of the baseball was still very smooth. The effect is a known one in soccer, where the path length can be long enough that the ball loses considerable speed. There is a famous free kick by Carlos (I forget his first name) that looks like the beginning a spiral. Hardly a smooth trajectory. But for baseball/softball, the trajectories seem to be very smooth. I have spent quite a of effort analyzing knuckleballs, and even they appear to be smooth. There are exceptions, but they seem to be just that--exceptions.

Having good data to analyze is a powerful tool.

 

[RubberBiscuit]

the trajectories are very smooth.

So what does this statement intend to communicate? I don't think anyone here is suggesting that a ball will instantaneously right-angle move (notch-move). I believe, just like everyone else here does, that a ball moving through air that is not hit by a bat (for example) will have a smooth path. I do not believe this is an issue in debate. The issue in debate is "late break" and its existence potentially due to Reynolds and its relationship to Magnus.

from about a dozen different pitchers

From this especially you should know that this is a statistically insignificant sample. Unless the laws of statistics has changed since my post-graduate education a sample size needs to at least be 30 or greater. Then in my pragmatic experience in life, and relating this again to the riseball in softball pitchers, I have and very well could catch 12 different pitchers and never see a pitcher with "late-break".

The reason why the Reynold's Number argument does not work so well for pitched baseballs is that the pitch track is so short. Over that brief path, the ball does not lose enough speed to see any effects as the ball passes through the so-called "drag crisis".

Let's break this down in a comparative analysis between what you are saying and what MIT folks have said. You are saying Reyonolds can not have an effect over a baseball pitched across over 60 feet. But the MIT folks say that Reynolds is in play over a 66 foot cricket pitch. Are you suggesting that this less than six feet delta is the critical difference? But before you answer that you might want to remember that a cricket ball is heavier and much smoother than a baseball which then those facts really place your contention in doubt.

But for baseball/softball, the trajectories seem to be very smooth. I have spent quite a of effort analyzing knuckleballs, and even they appear to be smooth.

I want to suggest again here, that you, then we, are getting very confused on your consistent use of the word "smooth". AGAIN a "smooth" path is NOT the question in debate,..... LATE BREAK is.