How do you throw a RISEBALL?

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Jun 17, 2009
15,036
0
Portland, OR
The good doctor has cast the gauntlet. He has done so because he is first and foremost a truth seeker. He welcomes data that refutes his existing beliefs. He isn’t married to a particular position so much as he cares about having a good understanding of reality. So fire away with the data. Let’s have it. Spew forth the condemning data.
 
Posted this link on another thread but think it is worth seeing in case you missed it.

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Rubber Biscuit
I am going to go out on a limb here and it is not to make myself feel good.....going to give you some of my non-physics related background: 1. Played at the highest level of men's fastpitch 2. Faced the absolute best riseball pitchers the game has ever seen.
3. Have swung at and missed way to many "late breaking/jumping" riseballs. 4. Have attempted to catch riseballs from the best men pitchers in the game---missed way to many of the "late breaking/jumping" riseballs. 5. Caught one of the top female riseball pitchers of this era who has "late break/jump".....missed several of those also. I am willing to bet that my data base is greater than just about everyone on this site.
To a catcher or hitter or proud parent standing behind home plate it is difficult to argue the idea of "late break/jump"......but when you view this from a profile/side view the ball simply DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING RESEMBLING "LATE BREAK/JUMP"
Others have made this challenge but to my knowledge it has never been accepted.........show me in video from a profile view a "late breaking/jumping" riseball. Until you do you are really way out of line with the point you are trying to make. When you provide video evidence we will all bow down to you 'cause you will be the first. I understand your passion.....many of us have it also, so we want to believe but just need some proof.




pobdude - My patience is failing me again here when I read this. Your position now is that the meer existence of data makes you right?!?!? . Are you kidding me...!?!? (if this aint another "tell".....) Our lives are FILLED TO THE BRIM with "data" that gets improperly used to produce misleading conclusions.

I mentioned before - I am just a plain ole bucket-dad with limited resources to do scientific procedure to produce counter-data.

If you don't want to check yourself here with the challenges I have made there is no more use in the discussion. (yes you addressed the surface of the Reynolds topic, with some good tidbits lending to that discussion, but then based on your data again you kicked that off the table without basis. AND then you fail to acknowledge the principles of statistical significance.)

I am officially done here too. You can go back to your monolithic preaching to your flock of sheeple without any inconvenience from me.

(Note that I am not angry - just passionate & expressive - if I met ya at some point pobdude I would buy ya a beer and we could talk more face to face which many times gets to a mutual conclusion much more efficiently than typing)
 
Nov 12, 2013
417
18
maritimes
just when i think i'm out ...:)
the video i believe "balls" posted of the NZ men's championship game in another thread showed some really good riseballs
it is definitely an effective pitch, the how and why of that effect is not well understood i think
 
Feb 17, 2014
7,152
113
Orlando, FL
...To a catcher or hitter or proud parent standing behind home plate it is difficult to argue the idea of "late break/jump"......but when you view this from a profile/side view the ball simply DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING RESEMBLING "LATE BREAK/JUMP"...

Based on the physical models submitted and the videos observed it seems as though the "movement" on a riseball is not an upward jump but rather a flattening of the trajectory. That said, when observed from a profile/side view does this flattening of the trajectory always occur at the same distance from home plate?
 
Last edited:

pobguy

Physics & Baseball
Feb 21, 2014
144
18
Based on the physical models submitted and the videos observed it seems as though the "movement" on a riseball is not an upward jump but rather a flattening of the trajectory. That said, when observed from a profile/side view does this flattening of the trajectory always occur at the same distance from home plate?
That's an interesting question. I encourage someone to use my trajectory calculator as one way to research this question. I am pretty tied up for the next week and a half or I would do it myself. When my time is a bit more free, I will also take a look at a bunch of riseballs for which I have the full trajectory.
 
I think there are several variables that would change when and how much flattening occurs:
Not necessarily in order:
1. Speed......high speed later flattening.....less time for gravity to work
2. Spin axis.....closer to horizontal and perpendicular to direction less/later flattening
3. Spin rate....more RPS less/later flattening
4. release angle....more upward angle less flattening ( must be realistic here,,,,we are talking about trying to get it close to the zone)
 

Greenmonsters

Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
Feb 21, 2009
6,165
38
New England
I was curious. Below are a photo of a cricket ball and a short description from Wikipedia. Distinctly different seam orientation than a softball or baseball. Apparently high-level cricket bowlers (akin to SB/BB pitcher) prefer to throw pitches when the ball is new because they swing (cricket speak for curve or move) better because the leather surface starts smooth and "shiny" and deteriorates during game play. Very interesting considering MLB umpire pre-game ball prep - also from Wiki "...Before all major- and minor-league baseball games, an umpire rubs six dozen or more balls with the Baseball Rubbing Mud (ETA from the Delware River near Palmyra, NJ) to give them a rougher surface, making them easier for pitchers to grip (MLB Rule 3.01c)...:)

Cricketball.jpg

"A cricket ball is made from a core of cork, which is layered with tightly wound string, and covered by a leather case with a slightly raised sewn seam. In a top-quality ball suitable for the highest levels of competition, the covering is constructed of four pieces of leather shaped similar to the peel of a quartered orange, but one hemisphere is rotated by 90 degrees with respect to the other. The "equator" of the ball is stitched with string to form the ball's prominent seam, with a total of six rows of stitches. The remaining two joins between the leather pieces are stitched internally. Lower-quality balls with a 2-piece covering are also popular for practice and lower-level competition due to their lower cost.

For men's cricket, the ball must weigh between 5 1/2 and 5 3/4 ounces (155.9 and 163.0 g) and measure between 8 13/16 and 9 in (224 and 229 mm) in circumference. In women's cricket the ball must weigh between 4 15/16 and 5 1/16 ounces (139.9 and 143.5 g) and measure between 8.3 and 8.9 in (210 and 225 mm) in circumference. A plastic cricket ball (known as a "Kwik cricket ball") is often used in matches for players who are or younger than 9 years old. Matches for 10 to 13 year olds are played with a ball weighing between 4 11/16 and 5 1/16 ounces (132.9 and 143.5 g). The ball for 10 to 13 year old games must measure between 8 and 8.9 in (205 and 225 mm). Any match for 14 year olds and above which is not a men's match is still played with a fully sized men's cricket ball.[3]

Cricket balls are traditionally dyed red, and red balls are used in Test cricket and First-class cricket. White balls were introduced when one-day matches began being played at night under floodlights, as they are more visible at night. Professional one-day matches are now played with white balls, even when they are not played at night. Other colours have occasionally been experimented with, such as yellow and orange (Glowing composite) for improved night visibility, but the colouring process has so far rendered such balls unsuitable for professional play because they wear differently from standard balls. A pink ball was used for the first time in an international match in July 2009 when the England Woman's team defeated Australia at Wormsley.[4] The white ball has been found to swing (ETA apparently the cricket term for curve or move) a lot more during the first half of the innings than the red ball and also deteriorates more quickly, although manufacturers claim that white and red balls are manufactured using the same methods and materials...."
 
Jul 1, 2013
41
0
I was curious. Below are a photo of a cricket ball and a short description from Wikipedia. Distinctly different seam orientation than a softball or baseball. Apparently high-level cricket bowlers (akin to SB/BB pitcher) prefer to throw pitches when the ball is new because they swing (cricket speak for curve or move) better because the leather surface starts smooth and "shiny" and deteriorates during game play. Very interesting considering MLB umpire pre-game ball prep - also from Wiki "...Before all major- and minor-league baseball games, an umpire rubs six dozen or more balls with the Baseball Rubbing Mud (ETA from the Delware River near Palmyra, NJ) to give them a rougher surface, making them easier for pitchers to grip (MLB Rule 3.01c)...:)

View attachment 5521

"A cricket ball is made from a core of cork, which is layered with tightly wound string, and covered by a leather case with a slightly raised sewn seam. In a top-quality ball suitable for the highest levels of competition, the covering is constructed of four pieces of leather shaped similar to the peel of a quartered orange, but one hemisphere is rotated by 90 degrees with respect to the other. The "equator" of the ball is stitched with string to form the ball's prominent seam, with a total of six rows of stitches. The remaining two joins between the leather pieces are stitched internally. Lower-quality balls with a 2-piece covering are also popular for practice and lower-level competition due to their lower cost.

For men's cricket, the ball must weigh between 5 1/2 and 5 3/4 ounces (155.9 and 163.0 g) and measure between 8 13/16 and 9 in (224 and 229 mm) in circumference. In women's cricket the ball must weigh between 4 15/16 and 5 1/16 ounces (139.9 and 143.5 g) and measure between 8.3 and 8.9 in (210 and 225 mm) in circumference. A plastic cricket ball (known as a "Kwik cricket ball") is often used in matches for players who are or younger than 9 years old. Matches for 10 to 13 year olds are played with a ball weighing between 4 11/16 and 5 1/16 ounces (132.9 and 143.5 g). The ball for 10 to 13 year old games must measure between 8 and 8.9 in (205 and 225 mm). Any match for 14 year olds and above which is not a men's match is still played with a fully sized men's cricket ball.[3]

Cricket balls are traditionally dyed red, and red balls are used in Test cricket and First-class cricket. White balls were introduced when one-day matches began being played at night under floodlights, as they are more visible at night. Professional one-day matches are now played with white balls, even when they are not played at night. Other colours have occasionally been experimented with, such as yellow and orange (Glowing composite) for improved night visibility, but the colouring process has so far rendered such balls unsuitable for professional play because they wear differently from standard balls. A pink ball was used for the first time in an international match in July 2009 when the England Woman's team defeated Australia at Wormsley.[4] The white ball has been found to swing (ETA apparently the cricket term for curve or move) a lot more during the first half of the innings than the red ball and also deteriorates more quickly, although manufacturers claim that white and red balls are manufactured using the same methods and materials...."

In cricket the ball breaking in the air is refered to as reverse swing.
After the new shiny ball has hit the ground a few times the ball becomes scuffed.
The fielding team will shine only on side of the ball and leave the other dull.
Certain bowlers are able to then bowl the ball with an upright seam position and the ball will turn in the air.
Generally to get the ball to move the pitched ball need to be given more air time.
WAQAR YOUNIS- BEST OVER EVER, REVERSE SWING GALORE!!!!!! - YouTube
 
Oct 19, 2009
1,023
38
I'm right here.
I never thought I would see the day where MIT, Gilligan's Island and a cricket Ball would all be mentioned in the same discussion.

What was the question again?
 

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