HOW do you Teach TILT!

[Dr. Chris Yeager]

Wellphyt:

"The pressure at the back foot disappears once your weight starts to leave the back leg as the hips begin to unwind."

Statements like this crack me up.
Again—where is the force coming from to “unwind” the hips? Answer—It is the legs-working/driving against the ground.






Wellphyt:

"That is not nearly as efficient as staying back and using the hips."

Uh huh…Just use those hips—how again??







Wellphyt:

"You can't totally stay back as the golfer does because your front foot is off the ground"

--well then why do you take your foot off the ground?







Wellphyt:

"but the forward movement is for balance purposes"

hmmmm why not just stay balanced????






Wellphyt:

"What I hear you saying is..."

What I am saying is quite simple: the stride has a purpose –it is an energy creator. The ability for some to ignore this amazes me.



Like I said quite clearly in the video: The size and scope must be smaller, and it must be well timed, but its overall function is the same as in throwing. (please watch the video again for more detail or info on how no-stride technique can be effective).

The vids are quite clear.

The question is how should your back leg contribute to the swing?
The best hitters will USE the back leg.

Utilizing a well-timed, coordinated, efficient movement to drive energy in the direction of our target, the pitch.

Just like we do in any other activity where high end speed is desired to propel/swing and implement.

 

[softballphreak]

The rear foot is off of the ground at or just before contact with the ball in many higher level swings. The pressure on the rear foot is gone almost instantly as the hip thrusts.

 

[softballphreak]

I don't know the names of all the parts of the anatomy (and don't really need to for instructing kids) but I do know that the hip muscles, the core muscles, and the muscles of the front leg, even, help me to thrust/rotate my hips. I don't feel the rear leg doing much except at go. As a matter of fact conscientiously trying to involve the rear leg seems to detract from the hip thrust.

Mr. T alluded to front leg action helping with that thrust I believe. It does seem that is true, almost like a contraction that creates a pull of the rear side.

 

[Dr. Chris Yeager]

Mr. T:

So where are we here? Who is advocating that the legs turn the hips, not the glutes/core? Clearly Yeager is in camp 1, and Wellphyte in camp 2. FFS in camp 1? I am not sure.

Careful here Mr. T…The PRIMARY(realizing it is not the only action involved) action that shifts weight and begins to move the pelvis forward and slightly open(the beginning of what one might call "rotation" is ABduction of the femur at the rear hip joint—this is the “sideways” Pressing” action I speak of..

The gluteus medius is the major muscle involved in hip joint (femoral) ABduction.
The gluteus medius is a short thick muscle at the sides of the hip.
This is the action that begins the shift in the direction of our target and is also what begins the Forward opening (aka “rotation”) of the pelvis.

I consider that a leg action—we are moving the femur. Some try to muddy the water(core/middle blah blah blah). But as long as you know that the Primary action is the ABduction of the femur by the muscles at the side of the hip, it really doesn’t matter.

It is as if saying the “LEG” pressing sideways is just too simple.

Mr.t:“This study does seem to suggest…..”

Just so you know, you are quoting a self-admitted novice “just a Dad” those comments and analyses are his not the researcher’s.



side note: The researcher's decision to use toe touch rather than heel plant yielded far different Ground Reaction Force data (timing related to event occurrence) than prior studies.

 

[Dr. Chris Yeager]

The rear foot is off of the ground at or just before contact with the ball in many higher level swings. The pressure on the rear foot is gone almost instantly as the hip thrusts.

Yes!!!!!!!

 

[Dr. Chris Yeager]

I don't feel the rear leg doing much except at go.


As a matter of fact conscientiously trying to involve the rear leg seems to detract from the hip thrust.

I agree...We focus on 2 "things" with the back leg:
1.Load
2.Attack


The "attack" is the body's 1st move in a positive direction at the pitch. A simple, sideways press in a straight line in the direction of the pitch...The rotation of the pelvis as well as the subsequent internal rotation of the back leg do not have to be "forced".....

 

[FPMark]

It 's hard to say that the legs power the swing or, the hips/pelvis power the swing without considering that they both serve an important function. I don't believe the rear leg actively 'pushes', but it does serve an important role in the forward momentum. The coil process includes both rear leg and hips.

The coil begins from a balanced stance. Coiling the hips puts the rear leg into a coiled position also. As the hips coil, they try to turn the rear leg also. Picking up the front foot as you coil puts 100% of your weight on the rear foot. This pressure on the rear foot keeps it from turning out, while the hip turns the upper leg putting 'spring tension' in the rear leg. As the body moves forward to rebalance, this 'spring tension' will begin to reverse, causing the hips to begin to rotate as the rear leg starts turning inward (IR). The evidence of the rear foot turning out toward the catcher, is a result of the foot pressure lessening as the weight moves forward, in effect, bleeding off some of the spring pressure. At toe touch, the hips are actively rotated with the 'butt' and lower back muscles pushing off of the momentum of the uncoiling spring in the rear leg. By heel plant the rear leg is done (uncoiled) and the rear heel comes up. I don't see an active push with the rear leg in the sequence, but that does not mean the rear leg doesn't play a prominant roll.

The forward momentum caused by the stride and uncoiling process is then stoped by the front leg and converted into more/faster rotation by forcing the rear hip to pivot around the front hip which is rotating into the straightened front leg. The rear hip pivoting around the front hip causes the rear leg and foot to be pulled forward.

Ted Williams said it best when he said the coil is the most important part of the swing. The hips power the swing, but they couldn't do it without the legs. (I added the part about the legs)

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Doc ... I don't think anyone could argue about rear leg abduction ... IMO it's clear as day.

A quick question ..... Do you still place an emphasis on the cue of having the rear knee drive/push the front heel into the ground?

The rear knee action, to me anyway, is the result of the rear leg uncoiling. Do you see it different?

 

[SBFAMILY]

Dr. Chris Yeager. Really enjoy reading your posts.

 

[Wellphyt]

Wellphyt:
Statements like this crack me up.
Again—where is the force coming from to “unwind” the hips? Answer—It is the legs-working/driving against the ground.

What muscles work the legs?


Wellphyt:

Uh huh…Just use those hips—how again??

The external rotator muscles of the pelvis try to move the back leg. The back leg can't move because the back foot is in a cleat in the dirt. The result is that the hips move instead. Closed chain articulation.


Wellphyt:
--well then why do you take your foot off the ground?

You pick up your front foot to cock your hips. Study Ted Williams. Teaching kids that the purpose of the stride is to build momentum into their swing in order to power their weight shift is IMO misguided at best. Especially in fastpitch. IMO we should be steering girls in fastpitch away from linear-momentum type swings and instead teach them how to use their hips and ground to weight shift.

"Mine (stride) was about 12 inches as a kid, but shortened as the years went by because as I got stronger and quicker I felt it an advantage to stay more within myself, more compact." -- Ted Williams

I coach travel softball. I see 14 year old girls hit balls over 200' fences all the time using no stride. I had an average sized girl on my team last year who routinely killed the ball. She had no stride. One day I'm throwing batting practice before a game and notice her hip cock. She had amazing hip action. It was staring me in the face the whole time, I just never saw it because it happened so fast. All she did was basically stand in place and swivel her hips.

We have another averaged sized 14 year old girl who plays for one of the best 14U travel "A" teams in the country. Her team made it to the finals at ASA Nationals this year. When our high school team played her high school team a few weeks ago, I video taped her hitting. Guess what? She has really good hip action. She basically stands in place and uses her hips.

Wellphyt:
hmmmm why not just stay balanced????

??????


Wellphyt:
What I am saying is quite simple: the stride has a purpose –it is an energy creator. The ability for some to ignore this amazes me.

Like I said quite clearly in the video: The size and scope must be smaller, and it must be well timed, but its overall function is the same as in throwing. (please watch the video again for more detail or info on how no-stride technique can be effective).

The vids are quite clear.

The question is how should your back leg contribute to the swing?
The best hitters will USE the back leg.

Utilizing a well-timed, coordinated, efficient movement to drive energy in the direction of our target, the pitch.

Just like we do in any other activity where high end speed is desired to propel/swing and implement.

What amazes me is how some ignore how you don't need to build forward momentum into the swing to weight shift if proper use of the hips and the ground are used.

If you look at your student Holly, she is now turning her back knee down-and-in prematurely compared to the pro hitters. Similar to what my daughter was doing. In the video you state that you are happy to see her back knee press sideways before the front foot lands. This back knee action that you are teaching Holly is what I'm now trying to coach out of my daughter.

IMO Holly's knee position at heel plant in her before swing is the right idea. This is one of those good natural actions that gets coached out of kids because of an obsession over the back knee driving down-and-in. I coached it out of my daughter by mistake because I didn't understand the importance of retaining pressure at the back foot during the transition as described by Sevam1.