hello elbow?

[Ken B]

I was invited by a local team to pitching clinic so i could follow up with their kids. The instructor taught wrist snap, hello elbow, step style and shut the door. At the end, I asked her if she would give us a demo and shot her in slo-mo. Video confirmed step style, but she had beautiful IR. She did not use hello elbow or wrist snap (there may have been a little forced hello elbow a the end. The instructor was awesome with the kids, but really didn't do what she taught. Sadly, the mgr took his kid to several lessons with her.

As an ump, I saw this kid try to follow the instructors lessons and her heard dad/mgr try to coach her using the instructor's cues all game long. It wasn't they stopped taking lessons and she started doing her own thing, that she actually started throwing harder and looked like a pitcher.

 

[NVfishing]

Last year I was looking for a pitching coach for my granddaughter, and I told the coach I would pay her to give ME a lesson before I brought my DGD to her. She charged $40 for a half hour lesson. I was throwing strikes right to her glove with fair speed, and I was using IR with a bent elbow (K position). I had watche Bill Hillhouses video and was trying to throw his way. She kept telling me to get long with the arm (L position) and to stop following through to my glove side shoulder, but to do the hello elbow following through to the throwing arm shoulder.

I never went back.

DGD was throwing a bullpen for her LL all-star team and I was outside the cage watching, when the coach told her to straighten the arm. I asked what she meant and she said to keep it locked all the way around. I said, "no, she is NOT going to do that. Give her any other advice regarding posture etc. but she is NOT going to lock out the arm."

It's good to see you step in. I just help my DD. I try to ignore what goes on around me with the other girls. All the girls are taught hello elbow around here.

 

[BoardMember]

I stand by my approach. You can analyze it all you want and make it like golf. Oh how fun.

Why are you so intimidated by advanced motor learning and skill development for fastpitch students/parents AND coaches Screwball? Every SINGLE time you post on the subject of I/R, it involves you down playing the importance of actually LEARNING that part of the motion that creates a high level delivery.

EVERY TIME a coach/parent OR student speaks about the benefits of learning/understanding/ I/R on this forum after I wrote my piece on the subject over 3 years ago........You pop off with some "poo-poo" about how "it isn't anything new"........And how people shouldn't worry much about it.........Or put to much stock in it..........

Your statements on the subject are at very best uninformed, as referenced here and elsewhere about how I/R is ALL ABOUT follow-through.......And at it's worst........Centered around down-playing it's involvement in actually teaching people HOW THE BEST IN THE GAME actually THROW a softball underhand.......Which is the FUNDAMENTAL difference in all pitchers at ANY level........

I don't care if you STEP hard off the mound.......DRIVE off the mound........Or CROW-DRAG off the mound........Every pitcher holds a ball in their hand.........Every pitcher goes around in a circle........But NOT every pitcher delivers the pitch USING I/R as the FUNDAMENTAL method of PROPELLING the softball toward the target.........And I would venture to say less then 50% do it "Naturally".........And even a less % "learn it eventually" by throwing 1000's of pitches over many years of work........Which is why probably less then 10% of ALL pitching students go on to a successful career on the mound at the highest levels (above rec ball)..........

And so you're offended by me calling you out on your BS on the subject?.........

Well here........Lets take a look at the BS imbeded in this post...........

Do you actually pitch because you are taking all the fun out it.

NEGATIVE.......NEGATIVE and MORE NEGATIVE..........Yes I actually pitch.......AND I actually teach it........And I believe I've PUT THE FUN IN IT......OR BACK IN IT for so SO MANY PEOPLE it's not even funny...........26,000 views for an 11 page thread Screwball...........Why do you think that is??? Because it's a non-teach and unimportant?.........

All pitchers do IR. While I appreciate the explanation from a 'book' perspective, just because you explain it with fancy terms it is not some groundbreaking thing we should all worship. It does not fundamentally change anything.

NEGATIVE.......NEGATIVE and MORE NEGATIVE..........NOT ALL pitchers "do I/R"........Especially those who are being taught to get the hand ON TOP THE BALL by some very well know instructors.........And even those who approach the delivery phase (past 12:00) and get the hand inside or under the ball don't have any idea what to do with that position except "bowl" the ball forward.........Which by the way is the FUNDAMENTAL premise behind the "HELLO ELBOW" delivery.......Trying to PROPEL THE BALL by bending the elbow UPWARD at release...........

And then you say "it doesn't fundamentally change ANYTHING.......??? More BS........Learning about, understand, and implementing the I/R portion of the delivery FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGES EVERYTHING Screwball........For SO MANY PEOPLE it's not even funny..........

It just describes a portion of the motion for dads who never pitched and who are obsessed with the arm in pitching, over learning about what the whole body does in pitching. It is for people who went down the hello elbow closed hip path and to me that was over with years ago and fortunately I skipped the hello elbow so don't worry about it.

NEGATIVE.......NEGATIVE and MORE NEGATIVE..........It doesn't "just describe" some miniscule/unimportant part of the motion........It describes THE MOST important part of the motion.........From 12:00 to release.......Whether you STEP......DRIVE......Or Crow-drag........Learning the importance of I/R delivery will help make even the worst pre-I/R mechanical flaws a "do-able" and effective delivery until other portions of the motions are refined/perfected for the over-all result..........IMO it is THE MOST important thing to learn.........And should be THE FIRST thing to focus on when learning to pitch........Learn to THROW THE BALL PROPERLY FIRST.......And learn how that happens........

My students learn THIS FIRST.........Because EVERYTHING done before this is done to ENHANCE this delivery......Or SOME form of it...........Teaching Stance, Grip, Stride/Drive, Arm Circle and Posture are a relative piece of cake once this motion is ingrained into a student.........

And NO.......My arm is NOT just falling and turning on it's own.........I am creating whip and THROWING the ball underhand.........With an amount of force GREATER then the effects of GRAVITY and simple circular momentum......As you'd like everyone to believe how it happens.........

IMO, this portion of the delivery was.......At least until I wrote about it.........THE NUMBER ONE most miss-understood, miss-interpeted and MISS-TAUGHT portion of the fastpitch motion.........And I tried to open some eyes to that fact........And you can "poo-poo" it all you want......It doesn't change that fact..........

You don't just pitch with your forearm. I am not saying that it is not there or there is a different way, but have not people stated that only a certain percentage of speed comes from that as opposed to how much comes from other parts of the motion as well? And how do movement pitches where the forearm is in a different location relate to IR?

More uninformed negativity..........I/R is NOT WRIST SNAP Screwball.........As Star pointed out to you in another post.........I/R IS ABOUT CREATING WHIP.........And learning/teaching proper whip IS something that EVERYONE should focus on........And I/R is FUNDAMENTALLY important to that process..........

A different opinion than yours does not make it BS either, Not very nice to say.

I don't care what "your opinion" is Screwball.......And whether it "differs from mine"..........And it has no bearing on me calling out your constant BS on this particular subject.........Sorry you think it's not nice.........It isn't personal........

I'll repeat what I said.........Any PC who tells you that what I'm demonstrating above is not a fundamental and teachable motor skill, should be avoided IMO..........ANYONE can teach Stance, Grip, Stride/Leg Drive, Arm Circle and Posture........But those who know this portion of the delivery, are the ones who have the advantage IMO........In not only development.......But in TIME SPENT teaching the fastpitch motion.......Vs. "waiting for them to figure it out".........Which some will NEVER do..........

And yes........That skill is NOT something new.........However, based on EVERYTHING I've seen, read, heard over the last 30 years, of those speaking, of or teaching the delivery phase........Makes my presentation of it somewhat "ground-breaking" IMO.......

And yes.......That's MY opinion.........

Carry on...........

 

[Adman]

But NOT every pitcher delivers the pitch USING I/R as the FUNDAMENTAL method of PROPELLING the softball toward the target

My DD didn't...couldn't throw with IR. I would have her swing her arm slowly, starting from 9:00 position, palm up and pulling her elbow down and into her side (as I think BoardMember had suggested) and she could do that repeatedly, SLOWLY. However, when she went through the whole pitching motion to a catcher, she would fall back to pushing the ball through. I didn't notice it because I thought her arm had IR, as she had practiced. However, once her shoulder started to hurt her, I took some video and looked closely. No IR. Just after 9:00 the video revealed she had her palm facing downward. Well, since I have a shoulder that will ONLY allow an IR motion, I figured her pushing the ball may be what was causing the shoulder pain. She simply could not make the leap between a slow IR practiced swing and a full on pitching motion. It did not come natural to her. I ended up duct-taping (purple, of course) an empty paper-towel tube to a softball and had her practice with that. The tube would be pointing out, away from the body (when showing to the catcher and in the palm up 9:00 position), as if to draw a circle on a wall facing her throwing arm side. If she pushed the ball down, it would smack her in the back of her thigh. If she kept her palm facing out, the tube would point towards her target, missing her thigh, just before the palm would rotate towards her target. If the tube hit her thigh at all it would hit the FRONT of her thigh upon release of the ball. She only had to hit the back of her thigh a couple of times before she self-adjusted to throwing with IR.

It was pretty amazing how quickly a simple prop could help her to make sense of her arm swing and self-correct. It also made for an interesting game of catch, what with a tube wobbling off the side of the ball. We were both laughing with how she now understood the motion better. It isn't yet 100% ingrained, since it doesn't come naturally to her. However, when she throws with IR, her shoulder never bothers her. BTW, buzzword or not, if someone on this board writes "IR", I can instantly get on track with understanding what they're writing.

Thanks,
Adam

 

[BoardMember]

That's an awesome story Adam.........Way to improvise a simple prop to teach proper mechanics!........You should be proud........Ingenuity at it's finest!

Reminds me of when I first saw Bill's "2-ball" prop for rise........Ingenious!

Viva Internal Rotation!..........

 

[parrot]

I've tried to simplify the IR concept for my LL girls by telling them "pull and roll"; "pull" the ball down, leading with the elbow, then when the elbow reaches the torso, "roll" the forearm/wrist from facing away from the body to facing the body, and let the arm finish naturally. I'm curious what Board Member, or other IR gurus, think of this description.

 

[HollowMan]

I agree with BoardMember that this is an important, teachable skill. I remember being frustrated when I first starting trying to teach little girls to throw overhand, trying to figure out exactly what constituted "throwing like a girl", and how to fix it. I didn't have the luxury of watching them on video - I just knew their motion looked funny, but it was hard to put my finger on exactly what they were doing that was incorrect.

When the girls finally got to the age of kid pitch, I went through the same thing with the pitching motion. There were a small number of girls who naturally threw the ball smoothly and quickly, but many more had an awkward "bowling" motion. Something in their delivery looked wrong, but once again it was hard to figure out precisely what it was. Not until I came to this site and started reading about I/R, and paying more attention to slo-mo video, did I realize that a large difference between the naturals and the others was simply I/R. Understanding what was happening, and what to try to teach them, made a big difference in my ability to help the girls.

Again, for some of the girls, teaching it was unnecessary because they did it already. But for the others, going through demonstrations similar to the short video of BoardMember above was a great help.

 

[Adman]

Reminds me of when I first saw Bill's "2-ball" prop for rise...

Heh, thanks. I had seen Bill's 2 ball prop in his online videos and thought that would work as well. However, I didn't have any large bolts handy and didn't want to wait for a big glob of adhesive to set. So, duct tape it is! As it turns out, a thin cardboard tube is hardly noticeable when attached to a ball. A small section from a super thin pool noodle, glued to the side of a ball could also work.

Nice animated GIF of your arm motion, BTW.

 

[stickpile39]

OK so I've been reading more and more about this. What I fail to understand is why hello elbow is taught by instructors who don't actually do it themselves? I was just at a practice and overheard an instructor talking about how they finally got a girl to learn the hello elbow release. What a shame I thought. Why does Jennie Finch teach it? Why do most instructors teach it? Is it a conspiracy!

 

[Amy in AZ.]

My only guess on why it is taught, is that they saw someone do it and that is all they understood, so they copied it. Instructors that use it locally, also allow students to drag the whole side of their drag foot, and sometimes even re-plant. Most parents don't bother to study the motion, themselves, so they don't care as long as the girls throws strikes.

Once I explain what muscles the girls needs to be using and that the ball is already gone, before they whip that elbow at the catcher, most see the light. I tell them that I want the motion to be more relaxed than tight and snappy.