Greg Maddux on 0-2 “Waste Pitches”

[Cornbread]

Curious on yalls thoughts. I feel like every pitch has purpose. Could be something that is more prevalent in baseball.

"The hitter is most vulnerable when you get him in an 0-2 bind. My goal is to take him out immediately. I'm going right after him, no fooling around with wasting a pitch up high or throwing one in the dirt. Why waste a pitch on 0-2? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in the game. People are scared to death of giving up hits on 0-2 counts. Its the lowest batting average of any count. So, what's the best time to get a hitter to swing at a pitch? You guessed it, 0-2. So, lets say you follow conventional wisdom and you waste a pitch up high or throw a curveball and try to get him to swing at a pitch in the dirt. Heck, it's usually such a bad pitch that the hitter will lay off. Now you just wasted a pitch and you're also wasting time. This strategy does nothing to help you at all. If anything, it gives the hitter more of an advantage because he gets to see one more pitch come out of your hand."

 

[GunnerShotgun]

First, he is one of the greatest to ever locate a pitch. He didn't need to "waste" a pitch as he could put it where ever he wanted whenever he wanted.

Second, wasting pitches is a good philosophy when they are younger because batters swing at them (sometimes) and it is effective.

 

[soonerfan1966]

Waste pitches are exactly that "waste". My grandson's baseball coach (on 0-2 counts) will call 3 straight waste pitches, doesn't understand how much pressure he just put on the pitcher to throw a strike after telling him not to throw a strike. I estimate 75-80% of the time he walks the batter, which adds to the pressure, just a vicious cycle.

Edit- maybe we should define what a "waste" pitch is.

 

[Hillhouse]

First, he is one of the greatest to ever locate a pitch. He didn't need to "waste" a pitch as he could put it where ever he wanted whenever he wanted.

Second, wasting pitches is a good philosophy when they are younger because batters swing at them (sometimes) and it is effective.

First, I completely agree with Maddux. I was never a fan of wasting anything. And while Maddux was in his own league, I had pretty good control too. But, I never saw a need in purposely throwing a ball. If you believe pitching is about rhythm (which it is) then purposely taking myself out of that rhythm seems counter productive. And lets be honest, if you're playing a team where the hitters are so bad they will hack at anything over their heads or in the dirt on an 0-2 count, then it doesn't sound like you'd need to throw a strike at all in any count. Most pitchers can tell by the first 2 strikes if the hitter has even the slightest amount of discipline to know if they will swing at the ball regardless of where it goes.

On a side note, yes Maddux was incredible. But he also got the better end of the deal with a lot of umpires. His reputation was for being around the strike zone all the time so, he's going to get the borderline pitches (and even not so borderline).

This is a lesson I drill into my student's heads: keep your pitches marginal. If you can't throw a riseball, for example, in and at the top of the strikezone then you will never get a call from an umpire when they see that pitch and it's rotation. If every rise is way out of the zone, and you're playing a good team, then that pitch will become useless. But if you can keep it close to the top, then both the ump and batter have to at least consider swinging. Keep all pitches MARGINAL, only go in the zone if you have to.

 

[STRIKE3]

First, I completely agree with Maddux. I was never a fan of wasting anything. And while Maddux was in his own league, I had pretty good control too. But, I never saw a need in purposely throwing a ball. If you believe pitching is about rhythm (which it is) then purposely taking myself out of that rhythm seems counter productive. And lets be honest, if you're playing a team where the hitters are so bad they will hack at anything over their heads or in the dirt on an 0-2 count, then it doesn't sound like you'd need to throw a strike at all in any count. Most pitchers can tell by the first 2 strikes if the hitter has even the slightest amount of discipline to know if they will swing at the ball regardless of where it goes.

On a side note, yes Maddux was incredible. But he also got the better end of the deal with a lot of umpires. His reputation was for being around the strike zone all the time so, he's going to get the borderline pitches (and even not so borderline).

This is a lesson I drill into my student's heads: keep your pitches marginal. If you can't throw a riseball, for example, in and at the top of the strikezone then you will never get a call from an umpire when they see that pitch and it's rotation. If every rise is way out of the zone, and you're playing a good team, then that pitch will become useless. But if you can keep it close to the top, then both the ump and batter have to at least consider swinging. Keep all pitches MARGINAL, only go in the zone if you have to.

Yep, super simple yet so many don't get it. Good post Bill

 

[Gambler Bob]

Depends on what you consider to be a waste pitch.

I do believe in calling a pitch that is suppose to miss the strike zone by 2-3 inches inside or outside. That would not be a waste pitch IMO. Depending on the game some umpires will call a pitch that misses closely a strike.

For the most part I do not believe in calling a pitch that is supposed to miss by 8 inches, that is waste pitch. There are some times where a waste pitch can be effective but this would be if you had a play called in advance. You can throw a pitch 8 inches outside to a right handed batter if you think you can back pick a runner off of first base. That would be one scenario where I could see calling a real waste pitch. Certainly more scenario for a waste pitch but most of them have to do more with the base runner than the actual batter. Pitchouts would be another example but rare in softball.

I do not think Maddux was talking about the above paragraph in definition of Waste Pitches.

 

[chinamigarden]

Big difference between expanding the strike zone and throwing a waste pitch. Give the batter something she isn’t sure about, 1 ball further out from the black. Not in the next batters box.

 

[gdc03120]

Give the batter something she isn’t sure about, 1 ball further out from the black. Not in the next batters box.

As an umpire, it p*sses me off when I'm on the plate with a RH batter up. The catcher is told to set up WELL inside the LH batter's box. The pitcher throws a straight fastball to her glove, nowhere NEAR even the outermost edge of the plate (or the zone), and they get mad I call it a ball and look at me like it's my first time ever calling a pitch. Are you kidding me? Not a chance. If it's somewhat close (i.e. in the river), I'll usually give that at the MOST. Setting that far outside just to make a batter chase is crazy, and as an umpire, it's borderline offensive to even be made to consider that a strike at all. /endrant

 

[radness]

First, he is one of the greatest to ever locate a pitch. He didn't need to "waste" a pitch as he could put it where ever he wanted whenever he wanted.

Second, wasting pitches is a good philosophy when they are younger because batters swing at them (sometimes) and it is effective.

Heres the relevant part of the discussion.
Control vs Control...
or lack of!

Who is on the rubber and who is at bat and
how much control do either have.

 

[radness]

As an umpire, it p*sses me off when I'm on the plate with a RH batter up. The catcher is told to set up WELL inside the LH batter's box. The pitcher throws a straight fastball to her glove, nowhere NEAR even the outermost edge of the plate (or the zone), and they get mad I call it a ball and look at me like it's my first time ever calling a pitch. Are you kidding me? Not a chance. If it's somewhat close (i.e. in the river), I'll usually give that at the MOST. Setting that far outside just to make a batter chase is crazy, and as an umpire, it's borderline offensive to even be made to consider that a strike at all. /endrant

Just for perspective... have caught pitches that were well into the opposite batter's box that were called strikes by some umpires.

Sometimes in the game we get opinions that have a close proximity to accuracy.
Sometimes we get UFOs...
...That get called in our favor.
...sometimes not

Strategize accordingly!