Good Umpiring

[marriard]

Nope, would not agree with this under any circumstance. What you just proposed is lying to the coach. It also puts your partner a precarious light. If the coach honestly believes you missed part of the play, you have just thrown your partner under the bus just to make yourself look amicable.

If an umpire believes it is possible s/he may have missed part of the play, there should be no question about going for help if asked. An umpire should ask the partner a specific question as it pertains to the coach's concern. If you ask a question, expect a direct and honest answer. If you have no doubts you had the entire play, just tell the coach you had the play and move on.

Oh, BTW, this isn't not an appeal, just simply asking an umpire request assistence from his/her partner.

I'll get the terminology right as I spend more time involved - somehow I keep getting deeper and deeper into coaching and being involved in softball. One day I am sure I will end up umpiring probably when my DD moves onto college.

I'll clarify what i wrote a little bit because I probably wrote it wrong and there seems to be a thousand different scenarios. I am not talking about plays that shouldn't be questioned in any way (such as bang/bang plays at first with the umpire in perfect position (beyond "Are you sure? Ok" if that) - I am talking the more complex question with lots of things going on or one where there could be a better angle from another umpire (or the coach feels there could be).

I don't see it as lying - if you go to the other umpire and say "I am 100% certain I got this right, this is what I saw, did you see anything different' and they say "No" or "it is your call" or "I didn't have good view" how did that hurt exactly? I see way too often when an umpire does get one wrong but absolutely refuses to ask for assistance that the situation escalates.

As an umpire (again different sport - not softball) who had many games televised it was massively painful when I saw calls that I thought I had 100% right shown to be incorrect (often in slow motion, from 3 different angles and generally with commentary in some D1 games or worse shown on an overhead screen which I wasn't allowed to look at). When I was younger I didn't ask for help from my fellow officials as often as I should have - my ego got in the way of what needed to be done which was to use all the available options on trying to ensure we got the call right (even when we still got it wrong).

 

[MTR]

I'll clarify what i wrote a little bit because I probably wrote it wrong and there seems to be a thousand different scenarios. I am not talking about plays that shouldn't be questioned in any way (such as bang/bang plays at first with the umpire in perfect position (beyond "Are you sure? Ok" if that) - I am talking the more complex question with lots of things going on or one where there could be a better angle from another umpire (or the coach feels there could be).

Complexity is irrelevant. It could be the simplest play in the world and then a player turns the wrong way or gets lackadaisical and make the play more difficult than anticipated.

I don't see it as lying - if you go to the other umpire and say "I am 100% certain I got this right, this is what I saw, did you see anything different' and they say "No" or "it is your call" or "I didn't have good view" how did that hurt exactly? I see way too often when an umpire does get one wrong but absolutely refuses to ask for assistance that the situation escalates.

You tell a coach you are going for help and then you don't? That's not lying? If you believe you saw 100% of the play and made your call based on that information, that is what you tell the coach and move on. If the coach comes out and asks you to go for help, s/he should be specific, not just "I think you missed it". What the coach gives you, is what you ask your partner, not just "do you have a different call?"

"It is your call" is not an appropriate response. Of course, it is your call, and remains your call since no other umpire may overturn it. If I ask my partner a question, I'm doing so for a reason. I expect a straight and appropriate response. If I didn't need the information, I wouldn't be asking the question.

As an umpire (again different sport - not softball) who had many games televised it was massively painful when I saw calls that I thought I had 100% right shown to be incorrect (often in slow motion, from 3 different angles and generally with commentary in some D1 games or worse shown on an overhead screen which I wasn't allowed to look at). When I was younger I didn't ask for help from my fellow officials as often as I should have - my ego got in the way of what needed to be done which was to use all the available options on trying to ensure we got the call right (even when we still got it wrong).

I'm not saying you don't go for help, I'm just saying you go for valid reason, not just to placate a coach or player.

 

[marriard]

I'm not saying you don't go for help, I'm just saying you go for valid reason, not just to placate a coach or player.

I think we are both saying much the same thing. As a sports umpire, I became very big on "managing the situation" and it is much easier to manage the situation when you are showing that you are taking the appropriate actions to get the best decision possible for the situation. As I said there are obviously situations where you also have to tell a coach "I was in perfect position and I had a perfect view of the situation and I saw XXX and unless there is something not related to those facts there is nothing to dispute with the call". I think my point is that I see too many umpires not willing to ask for assistance in situations when they absolutely should.

I am not a softball/baseball umpire so I don't know how they generally instruct umpires in this sport around this, but having worked in many other sports, sometimes taking an action to placate a coach or player or to help control a situation is a perfectly legitimate reason to do something. "Reading a situation" and taking appropriate action is highly encouraged. I see nothing wrong with telling a coach "I am 100% certain with my call but I am willing to talk to my other team member to make sure that the catch was made/the tag was good/the ball didn't come out, etc, etc"

And no it is not lying - you are asking for confirmation from another member of your umpiring team that you got the call or part of a call right. His help in confirming your decision is help. His "I didn't see it" or "you had the best angle" or "I can't be of help" or "I didn't have a view" is help and you made the effort to see if you missed something. It is the same sort of help you want from your fellow umpire when he does see something different. If you want to ask a specific question about the situation then go ahead, but you should ask.

After discussing, going back to the coach and saying "I had the best view and I am certain of my call. I discussed it with the other umpire to make sure and he saw it the same way/didn't have a better view/etc" is much preferable to stubbornly refusing to ask for help when it is available. What is the worse thing that can happen - that you were right in the first place and nothing changes? Or even better, if you were wrong, then you actually get the call right?

 

[MTR]

I think we are both saying much the same thing. As a sports umpire, I became very big on "managing the situation" and it is much easier to manage the situation when you are showing that you are taking the appropriate actions to get the best decision possible for the situation. As I said there are obviously situations where you also have to tell a coach "I was in perfect position and I had a perfect view of the situation and I saw XXX and unless there is something not related to those facts there is nothing to dispute with the call". I think my point is that I see too many umpires not willing to ask for assistance in situations when they absolutely should.

I am not a softball/baseball umpire so I don't know how they generally instruct umpires in this sport around this, but having worked in many other sports, sometimes taking an action to placate a coach or player or to help control a situation is a perfectly legitimate reason to do something. "Reading a situation" and taking appropriate action is highly encouraged. I see nothing wrong with telling a coach "I am 100% certain with my call but I am willing to talk to my other team member to make sure that the catch was made/the tag was good/the ball didn't come out, etc, etc"

And no it is not lying - you are asking for confirmation from another member of your umpiring team that you got the call or part of a call right. His help in confirming your decision is help. His "I didn't see it" or "you had the best angle" or "I can't be of help" or "I didn't have a view" is help and you made the effort to see if you missed something. It is the same sort of help you want from your fellow umpire when he does see something different. If you want to ask a specific question about the situation then go ahead, but you should ask.

After discussing, going back to the coach and saying "I had the best view and I am certain of my call. I discussed it with the other umpire to make sure and he saw it the same way/didn't have a better view/etc" is much preferable to stubbornly refusing to ask for help when it is available. What is the worse thing that can happen - that you were right in the first place and nothing changes? Or even better, if you were wrong, then you actually get the call right?

In my part of this universe, it is lying if you tell the coach you are going for help and you tell your partner you don't want it. THAT is what you offered: There is no reason not to even if you 100% have the call and it is 100% your call to make. So the conversation you have is "I saw it and got it right" and they reply "Uh huh. OK Maybe that isn't what you meant, but it is certainly what you offered and to what I disagreed.

Look, you seem like you have your view and are not going to change. We are not saying the same thing. If I am asked to go for help and believe the coach's concern to be valid, not a problem.

Too many people out there that think Billy Martin/Earl Weaver method of challenging umpires is acceptable and the way to manage a situation. Those people are clueless. There are times that coaches are so dense they will stomp around the field whining until I ask them WHAT they think was wrong. Again, if a valid concern, no problem going to ask for help. When I do, I will give my partner the view and reason for the call and them specifically ask him the question the coach proposed. I expect an honest response. If the additional information is enough to change the call, I change the call. Unlike the old school belief, I don't "eat" the call if it can be corrected within reason and within the parameters umpires are provided.

I once had request to go for help on a play where my partner would have had to looked through my legs from a holding zone over 70' away on a tag play on a straight-in slide at 2B. I was about 12' away looking across the front edge of the base on a throw from RC. The pitcher made the request at the direction of the coach. I declined and told the pitcher, "No, I had a clear look at the play". Pitcher's response, "Yep, you did".

IOW, it wasn't a valid request and I wasn't going to go just for the sake of making the coach feel all warm and fuzzy inside. That is exactly what the coach wanted. He was fishing. He was attempting to wrest control of the game from the umpire crew.

AFA resumes, 45 years of umpiring (first 22 baseball), 7 NC including 5 Major and 2 ISF WC. BTW, I also conduct a school each year and give clinics on game management, among other issues.

 

[alexander58]

Nope, would not agree with this under any circumstance. What you just proposed is lying to the coach. It also puts your partner a precarious light. If the coach honestly believes you missed part of the play, you have just thrown your partner under the bus just to make yourself look amicable.

If an umpire believes it is possible s/he may have missed part of the play, there should be no question about going for help if asked. An umpire should ask the partner a specific question as it pertains to the coach's concern. If you ask a question, expect a direct and honest answer. If you have no doubts you had the entire play, just tell the coach you had the play and move on.

Oh, BTW, this isn't not an appeal, just simply asking an umpire request assistence from his/her partner.

I admire your conviction, but we are all sure we saw it correctly. As a coach, I don't make frivolous requests. I get along well with umpires. There is no reason to dismiss a request at hand to ask your partner if they had a better look. When an umpire says "I had it", I take that as "I'm the boss . I Can't be wrong".

 

[BretMan]

I admire your conviction, but we are all sure we saw it correctly. As a coach, I don't make frivolous requests. I get along well with umpires. There is no reason to dismiss a request at hand to ask your partner if they had a better look. When an umpire says "I had it", I take that as "I'm the boss . I Can't be wrong".

Here's one that actually happened to me twice this year. I'm the base umpire. Runner on first. Runner steals. I'm in position, see the tag just fine and call the runner out on a close play.

Offensive coach wants me to "check with my partner". Why? Just because he didn't like the outcome? Sorry, coach, not doing it. What is another umpire standing 90 feet away going to "help with" that I may have missed being in the proper position a few feet away?

On the other hand, in another game I had this same play, called the out, then had the offensive coach come out and ask me if I had seen the ball come loose before the tag. No, I hadn't, as the sliding runner's body had blocked my view of the glove.

Now, that is something I can work with. The coach has presented a legitimate reason for checking with my partner other than "it was a close, routine play, I didn't like the outcome so I'll go on a fishing expedition for a more satisfactory result".

In this case, my partner did indicate that the ball was loose momentarily when the tag was attempted and I changed the call to safe.

So when is it advisable to check with your partner? When there is some reasonable doubt that you may have missed some element of the play. The ball was loose and you didn't see it, your view was blocked by a player, for some reason you were not able to get into the proper position to make the call or ifyou had a bad angle on a pulled foot or swipe tag. If none of those were present, then making the call is simply doing the job you're being paid to do. Checking just to placate a coach does nothing more than waste time and open up coaches to asking for help on every play where they don't happen to like the call.

 

[MTR]

I admire your conviction, but we are all sure we saw it correctly. As a coach, I don't make frivolous requests. I get along well with umpires. There is no reason to dismiss a request at hand to ask your partner if they had a better look. When an umpire says "I had it", I take that as "I'm the boss . I Can't be wrong".

Sorry your comprehension is so askew that when you don't get your way, it must be because the other guy is wrong. Of course, then again, I wasn't responding to anything you posted.

And if you actually read my posts you would have seen that at no point....let me say that again, AT NO POINT did I suggest not to consider asking a partner for help if there was a valid reason. Just thinking the other guy may have had a better look is not necessarily a valid reason without a quantifier.

 

[tghorley]

The umpire's only responsibility once the ball is released is looking through the strike zone. Even the catcher cannot say for sure as his/her job is to catch the pitch and check runners, not look to see if it crossed the plate.

Last fall, championship game, two outs, tying runner on third base, two strikes on slap hitter. Ball is very low and as hitter takes her steps to slap, she never takes the bat off of her shoulder and lets the ball go (there is/was video confirming she did not offer). Umpire says yes, she went. Batter ask plate umpire if he would ask the base umpire if he saw it differently. He emphatically said no. Looks like this umpire was as cold as I was and wanted to get warm. To our players, coaches, and fans credit, they accepted the umpires decision and did not raise a fuss. This is the kind of umpire I have no respect.

 

[Lozza]

I had an umpire that emphaticlly told me my player missed the tag. When I told him my catcher had the ball and was blocking the plate and therefore the runner had to slide I was told to take myself back into the dugout or he'd throw me. I asked him to please ask the other umpire. I got thrown Second game in my life. All asked very politely (even the other coach went 'but why she didn't do anything wrong' and got threatened with being thrown herself!) At one point he tried to make me leave the complex but thankfully cooler heads prevailed and I was allowed to sit on 'this side' of the complex (ended up leaving anyways as I needed a nice long walk or harsh words were going to be said afterwards) To top it off? After the game the other umpire admitted to me that he would have told the plate he was wrong. The runner moved from the tag, which he saw at first base. After being told that I (lost my head) and offered the plate umpire my glasses as clearly he was blind. I hope he never umpires a game of mine (different association) as I will not get one strike called on me (and after doing that, probably deservedly so)

Most umpires are unreasonable when it comes to questioning their calls. There is nothing wrong with asking an umpire to go ask for a second opinion. ESPECIALLY when you have the coach giving you the reason why.

 

[BretMan]

Last fall, championship game, two outs, tying runner on third base, two strikes on slap hitter. Ball is very low and as hitter takes her steps to slap, she never takes the bat off of her shoulder and lets the ball go (there is/was video confirming she did not offer). Umpire says yes, she went. Batter ask plate umpire if he would ask the base umpire if he saw it differently. He emphatically said no. Looks like this umpire was as cold as I was and wanted to get warm. To our players, coaches, and fans credit, they accepted the umpires decision and did not raise a fuss. This is the kind of umpire I have no respect.

That's a strange one. The guidelines for checking with the base umpire on a "swing/no swing" call are that only the defensive team may make the request and then only if the pitch was called a ball. The flip side of that is that the plate umpire should rule a swing only if he is 100% sure that he saw one.

Maybe it was a blown call. But a blown call does not automatically equate to "purposely cheating a team to prematurely end the game because I want to go home".

By the way...one of my best buddies from Ohio relocated to Wilmington about eight years ago. To have him tell it, it's a tropical paradise that never gets cold! We try to get down there at least once a year and love that area.