Early bat speed - does it exist?

[fanboi22]

QuoTE="fanboi22, post: 547882, member: 13827"]
Bobby, you also haven't addressed the 'whip' in the sling. Sorry, i was really curious to hear your reply on that.

No whip in the sling. Strictly centripetal force. No slack.

[/QUOTE]

But the "whip" is a rotational move and the extension of the hands is a linear move that is...... bat drag.
Think of it this way:

You stated the above earlier. Whip is rotational and that extension is linear and is bat drag. I believe that there is bat 'lag' not drag, and that the extension of the hands combined with the slowing of the hands at extension creates whip. And yes i think it is linear, or at least more linear than rotational. I feel the swing starts rotationaly and extends to a linear whip.

Are you stating that the whole swing is rotational and that there is no 'whip' in a high level swing? You are calling bat lag - 'slack' and that means if the barrel doesn't rotate around the body and has a linear component then it is not a high level swing?

I am just losing track of the conversation i guess.

 

[fanboi22]

I should make a correction and say early TTB.
I'm defining TTB as turning the part of the barrel that is facing the catcher so it becomes the part of the barrel that contacts the ball. TTB early creates early bat speed. TTB is rotating the bat around the hands via wrist supination. TTB can be created through centrifugal force or by torquing the barrel, leveraging against a fulcrum.

I wanted to follow up that when watching the Miggy sports science, at around the 1:45 min mark, that i slow motion it thru and that i agree there is probably about 30-40 degrees up supination, but it doesn't look until later as the barrel gets below the ball into plane. So i admit i was incorrect in that, however i do not believe it is a forced supination at the beginning of the swing for TTB. I still believe that torso torque and connection create the barrel turn.

Was i the first person here to admit they were wrong?

 

[Bobby Shirer]

Are these clips supposed to prove a point?
And then the comment about Hank (btw no relevance in the video) "hands top and turn left." Do they stop or turn? How long do they stop? (The video stops)
The video of Mike is a great example of torquing the barrel.
So what's your point and are you going to make the frame by frame to show the hands stopping because in the videos the hands keep moving.

still frames are useless when one is looking for ‘force production’ It shows static positions. It doesn’t show how one got to that position.

yes the chest stops, the hands turn left( stop) and the chest follows. The best are ‘hitters’ not ‘swingers’.
[/QUOTE]
Still frames can show changes in dynamic movements frame by frame split second by split second. Still frames of static positions would show no difference frame to frame. If the hands stopped, it would be easy to show using stills. But you can't show it because the hands don't stop. And the chest doesn't stop unless the hands become disconnected from rotation.
Come to think of it if the hands stopped they would move rearward in relation to the forward moving/rotating body.

 

[_MIA_]

Was i the first person here to admit they were wrong?

 

[Bobby Shirer]

No whip in the sling. Strictly centripetal force. No slack.

But the "whip" is a rotational move and the extension of the hands is a linear move that is...... bat drag.
Think of it this way:

You stated the above earlier. Whip is rotational and that extension is linear and is bat drag. I believe that there is bat 'lag' not drag, and that the extension of the hands combined with the slowing of the hands at extension creates whip. And yes i think it is linear, or at least more linear than rotational. I feel the swing starts rotationaly and extends to a linear whip.

Are you stating that the whole swing is rotational and that there is no 'whip' in a high level swing? You are calling bat lag - 'slack' and that means if the barrel doesn't rotate around the body and has a linear component then it is not a high level swing?

I am just losing track of the conversation i guess.

[/QUOTE]
I'm answering the questions individually and you want to know how the movements relate to each other.
Firstly, the sling is spinning around a somewhat stationary axis, its extension is because of the constant change in direction of the pulling force. It constantly accelerates even though the rational speed remains the same because of the directional change. The momentum decreases if the radius gets larger (extends)
The whip uses an advancing axis that moves down the length of the whip and increases in speed as it progresses because the momentum is conserved and squeezed into a smaller and smaller medium. The movement is a wave. If you watch it in slow motion, there is a rotational component in the same manner that the sling is spun by change of direction but the driving movement stops and the wave continues and accelerates.
The whip accelerates because of conservation of momentum from big to small. This wouldn't cause acceleration in a bat because the mass is greater as you move away from the handle.
I describe lag as the resistance to change of direction that causes a bending moment as the handle is torqued.
I describe bat drag as the movement of pulling the knob of the bat linearly.
The whip movement is due to change in direction of the pulling force, not the stopping of the force. Pull a whip by its handle and stop and all that happens is the small end bunches up behind the big end. Think water skier dragging behind a boat. Now if that boat suddenly turns, the water skier will experience centripetal force, accelerate in the direction of the turn and woohooo!!!!!! The whip turns sharply(u turn) ...momentum is conserved and acceleration happens.....
But if you put a mass at the end of the whip, I don't think the result would be what you'd see with the sling.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

I wanted to follow up that when watching the Miggy sports science, at around the 1:45 min mark, that i slow motion it thru and that i agree there is probably about 30-40 degrees up supination, but it doesn't look until later as the barrel gets below the ball into plane. So i admit i was incorrect in that, however i do not believe it is a forced supination at the beginning of the swing for TTB. I still believe that torso torque and connection create the barrel turn.

Was i the first person here to admit they were wrong?

So does Manny's core rotate the bat or is it forced supination/torquing the bat?
Your not wrong, just seeing it differently. Happens to me all the time.
Btw... Miggy looks more like 90 degrees of supination. Lol

 

[Work=wins]

still frames are useless when one is looking for ‘force production’ It shows static positions. It doesn’t show how one got to that position.

yes the chest stops, the hands turn left( stop) and the chest follows. The best are ‘hitters’ not ‘swingers’.

Still frames can show changes in dynamic movements frame by frame split second by split second. Still frames of static positions would show no difference frame to frame. If the hands stopped, it would be easy to show using stills. But you can't show it because the hands don't stop. And the chest doesn't stop unless the hands become disconnected from rotation.
Come to think of it if the hands stopped they would move rearward in relation to the forward moving/rotating body.
[/QUOTE]

why do you continue to ignore your eyes. The chest stops. The hands stop. They both turn left because of that.

here’s a video on why rotation needs to be stopped. Look at most HOFers. They are closed. Now you know why.



2:34 mark : ‘it gives my hands a chance to strike and get a good barrel on it’.

 

[fanboi22]

But the "whip" is a rotational move and the extension of the hands is a linear move that is...... bat drag.
Think of it this way:

You stated the above earlier. Whip is rotational and that extension is linear and is bat drag. I believe that there is bat 'lag' not drag, and that the extension of the hands combined with the slowing of the hands at extension creates whip. And yes i think it is linear, or at least more linear than rotational. I feel the swing starts rotationaly and extends to a linear whip.

Are you stating that the whole swing is rotational and that there is no 'whip' in a high level swing? You are calling bat lag - 'slack' and that means if the barrel doesn't rotate around the body and has a linear component then it is not a high level swing?

I am just losing track of the conversation i guess.

I answering the questions individually and you want to know how the movements relate to each other.
Firstly, the sling is spinning around a somewhat stationary axis, its extension is because of the constant change in direction of the pulling force. It constantly accelerates even though the rational speed remains the same because of the directional change. The momentum decreases if the radius gets larger (extends)
The whip uses an advancing axis that moves down the length of the whip and increases in speed as it progresses because the momentum is conserved and squeezed into a smaller and smaller medium. The movement is a wave. If you watch it in slow motion, there is a rotational component in the same manner that the sling is spun by change of direction but the driving movement stops and the wave continues and accelerates.
The whip accelerates because of conservation of momentum from big to small. This wouldn't cause acceleration in a bat because the mass is greater as you move away from the handle.
I describe lag as the resistance to change of direction that causes a bending moment as the handle is torqued.
I describe bat drag as the movement of pulling the knob of the bat linearly.
The whip movement is due to change in direction of the pulling force, not the stopping of the force. Pull a whip by its handle and stop and all that happens is the small end bunches up behind the big end. Think water skier dragging behind a boat. Now if that boat suddenly turns, the water skier will experience centripetal force, accelerate in the direction of the turn and woohooo!!!!!! The whip turns sharply(u turn) ...momentum is conserved and acceleration happens.....
But if you put a mass at the end of the whip, I don't think the result would be what you'd see with the sling.
[/QUOTE]

I still am not sure how you don't think there is whip in the swing. Are you stating that Miggy's swing is purely rotational? If we need to move this to practical i will, because i dont think i know all the big words.

Your bat drag is a straight linear pull. That is not what i am saying. I am agreeing that there is a slight rotational element to the swing around the core locked, or connected, to the torso. that allows the whip to happen. it is not end over end. It is not the human centipede of hitting.

The bat isn't being pulled directly upon itself. It is being turned by the torso then released to extension to the pitch and whipped to contact. Are you seeing something different with the Miggy video i posted?

 

[fanboi22]

But does Manny's core rotate the bat or is it forced supination/torquing the bat.
Your not wrong, just seeing it differently. Happens to me all the time. Some call it learning! I spend a lot of time trying to understand and justify what my eyes see but my brain doesn't quite comprehend. Physics and math are good guidelines and help when the only answers are, "the human body is different," also known as the "its magic" defence.

I believe it is hands holding the bat firmly and not allowing it to be left behind. The core pulls the barrel around. If the hands aren't firm, the barrel drags. or an extreme lag, whatever you want to call it. It is not wrapping but waiting to be drug around.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

Still frames can show changes in dynamic movements frame by frame split second by split second. Still frames of static positions would show no difference frame to frame. If the hands stopped, it would be easy to show using stills. But you can't show it because the hands don't stop. And the chest doesn't stop unless the hands become disconnected from rotation.
Come to think of it if the hands stopped they would move rearward in relation to the forward moving/rotating body.

why do you continue to ignore your eyes. The chest stops. The hands stop. They both turn left because of that.

here’s a video on why rotation needs to be stopped. Look at most HOFers. They are closed. Now you know why.



2:34 mark : ‘it gives my hands a chance to strike and get a good barrel on it’.
[/QUOTE]
I don't see it. You should try showing it rather than posting a video of 2 guys talking about it. If Giancarlo is starting closed and rotating past center, he's still rotating.
The chest stops the hands stop, errrr aaaaa they turn left. How were they moving before they stopped? We're they moving forward or turning left?
No explanation of stopping the turn. He struggles with pulling off because his swing is out front and not deep.