Early bat speed - does it exist?

[fanboi22]

I had jumped the topic in the Double Pendulum thread, so thought I would start this new one.

It seems like this has been debated in the past (see snf thread) but am really curious if there is data proving there really is early bat speed and/or what the definition of early bat speed is if it is not actually increased speed of the barrel relative to the hand speed at the start of the swing.

I am of the mind that the initiation of the swing is getting the correct tilt and hand path on plane to the pitch having the torso pull the hands which are held tight to the same relative position about the torso as it tilts and turns creating bat lag (not early bat speed) with little to no more bat speed v hand speed until the hands move from the torso in a line to the ball and whip into contact(Longoria gif).

That is what I see from the Ortiz data and the Longoria gif. In the skeleton gif you can see when the speed of the barrel increases and goes to green as the end of the barrel is facing the catcher behind the batter.

I have tried with my DD to torque the barrel to get early bat speed which it did, but it also dumped the barrel below the path and lowered the overall speed of the swing and eliminated alot of the power.

So my question is, is there data that supports early bat speed which has the barrel traveling faster than the hands early in the swing and maintaining or increasing that speed thru contact? IMO if there is bat lag which leads to release and whip of barrel, there cannot be the 'early bat speed'. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the definition of early bat speed.

 

[_MIA_]

If we agree that Ortiz has a good swing, what I would like to see is to take an amateur's swing and lay the same graph on top of Ortiz's swing after normalizing the ordinate values of the curves by the respective maximum values and the abscissa by the time at contact for each player.

 

[_MIA_]

Also the fact that the hand speed is greater than the barrel speed sort of makes sense but makes me question the utility of comparing the barrel speed measurement to the hand speed measurement in order to determine whether or not somebody has early bat speed.

The velocity (and hence speed) at a point on the barrel is going to be a combination of translational (hands moving forward in space taking the nearly rigid bat with it) and rotational ( rotational velocity of the hands multiplied by the distance from the hands to the barrel with a direction perpendicular to the rotational axis) components. Initially as the barrel is moving rearward, which it does for all good hitters to some extent, the rotational component of the linear velocity will have a component which is opposite the direction of the hand direction velocity component of the barrel velocity and hence these two will counteract each other. If the rotational rate of the barrel is high enough it might be enough to overcome this and still give a larger barrel speed (the magnitude of the barrel velocity) than hand speed but as you see in Ortiz's case it isn't initially.

In my mind, determining quantitatively whether or not somebody has early bat speed is going to be subjective at best. People often use early "barrel blurr" to say that someone has early bat speed. If you wanted get a quantitative measurement one could take, for some elite hitter who has early "bat blurr", the time (normalized by time at contact) at which velocity is some percentage (25? 50?) of the max and use that and then compare to other hitters.

 

[fanboi22]

Also the fact that the hand speed is greater than the barrel speed sort of makes sense but makes me question the utility of comparing the barrel speed measurement to the hand speed measurement. The velocity at a point on the barrel is going to be a combination of translational (hands moving forward in space taking the nearly rigid bat with it) and rotational ( rotational velocity of the hands multiplied by the distance from the hands to the barrel with a direction perpendicular to the rotational axis) components. Initially as the barrel is moving rearward, which it does for all good hitters to some extent, the rotational component of the linear velocity will have a component which is opposite the direction of the hand direction velocity component of the barrel velocity and hence these two will counteract each other. If the rotational rate of the barrel is high enough it might be enough to overcome this and still give a larger barrel speed (the magnitude of the barrel velocity) than hand speed but as you see in Ortiz's case it isn't initially.

I you saying the motion sensor is not collecting enough of the (or not correct) data to capture true barrel speed? Or just that comparing to hand speed is not the correct measure? Again, maybe it is just my misunderstanding of the definition of early bat/barrel speed.

I think I am just suggesting that there isn't an active torque on the barrel that creates initial speed faster than the hands are moving, which eliminates the thought of trying to torque extra speed from the barrel more so than the torso/hand engine can pull. I would guess from this the real speed is generated thru the end of the swing at barrel release/whip. if that makes sense.

 

[_MIA_]

I you saying the motion sensor is not collecting enough of the (or not correct) data to capture true barrel speed? Or just that comparing to hand speed is not the correct measure? Again, maybe it is just my misunderstanding of the definition of early bat/barrel speed.

I think I am just suggesting that there isn't an active torque on the barrel that creates initial speed faster than the hands are moving, which eliminates the thought of trying to torque extra speed from the barrel more so than the torso/hand engine can pull. I would guess from this the real speed is generated thru the end of the swing at barrel release/whip. if that makes sense.

What I am saying is that with no rotational motion of the barrel (just translates) the hand and barrel speed would be the same. Then within a range of rotational velocities (>0) of the barrel the barrel speed will be less than the hand speed because of the rearward motion of the barrel. Greater than this range you would get barrel speed to be larger. However I have no idea whether this out of range rotational velocity is even humanly possible, e.g. the fact that the barrel speed is less than hand speed doesn't necessarily mean that the hitter isn't actively torquing the handle as much as he/she can. That is why I was interested in seeing different hitter's profiles (both amateur and elite hitters). For example we all know how Judge was taught. What would his velocity profile look like? If his still had the hand speed less than the barrel speed then it might be fair to say that no matter how hard you torque the handle you won't have barrel speed greater than hand speed for the initial portion of the swing.

The ultimate goal is an elite barrel path (which obviously will vary for pitch location), which in my mind if produced, will result in a correct barrel speed profile (whatever that is). How to get that...well I am probably the wrong person to ask

 

[fanboi22]

What I am saying is that with no rotational motion of the barrel (just translates) the hand and barrel speed would be the same. Then within a range of rotational velocities of the barrel the barrel speed will be less than hand speeds. Greater than this range you would get barrel speed to be larger. However I have no idea whether this out of range rotational velocity is even humanly possible, e.g. the fact that the barrel speed is less than hand speed doesn't necessarily mean that the hitter isn't actively torquing the handle as much as he/she can.

Got it. I guess I feel the 'torquing' of the hands as a means to an end. Meaning that if I don't hold on tight (torque) then the bat head will be left behind and slam into my neck. By 'torquing' I am holding the bat in a way that allows it to come along for the ride (finding plane thru torso tilt) until I need to make a last minute adjustment to height/plane and then release barrel to whip.

I think any active torque in advance of the torso tilt and getting on plane will always dump the barrel. At least when DD was practicing an active torque.

If I think of it in terms of whipping the towel, the towel and hands are at the same speed until I 'snap' the towel. I feel this is the same concept with bat lag barrel whip. No specific early bat speed, but a rigid enough hand pivot point (holding on the for ride) that has the barrel going relatively the same speed as the hands until released/whipped.

If there was early bat speed, that got the barrel moving a lot faster than the hands, then the hands would have to play catch up to be able to whip the barrel at the release of the swing.

Asked another way, is the whip in the swing a needed trait to a high level swing? If so I would ask how that could happen with early bat speed and the hands playing catch up.

Thank you for your input, I appreciate the dialogue.


Edit: I replied before your edits....

 

[_MIA_]

Got it. I guess I feel the 'torquing' of the hands as a means to an end. Meaning that if I don't hold on tight (torque) then the bat head will be left behind and slam into my neck. By 'torquing' I am holding the bat in a way that allows it to come along for the ride (finding plane thru torso tilt) until I need to make a last minute adjustment to height/plane and then release barrel to whip.

I think any active torque in advance of the torso tilt and getting on plane will always dump the barrel. At least when DD was practicing an active torque.

If I think of it in terms of whipping the towel, the towel and hands are at the same speed until I 'snap' the towel. I feel this is the same concept with bat lag barrel whip. No specific early bat speed, but a rigid enough hand pivot point (holding on the for ride) that has the barrel going relatively the same speed as the hands until released/whipped.

If there was early bat speed, that got the barrel moving a lot faster than the hands, then the hands would have to play catch up to be able to whip the barrel at the release of the swing.

Asked another way, is the whip in the swing a needed trait to a high level swing? If so I would ask how that could happen with early bat speed and the hands playing catch up.

Thank you for your input, I appreciate the dialogue.


Edit: I replied before your edits....

The initial barrel movement for all good hitters has both rotational and linear components. The question is whether the rotation is purely reactive or due to both reactive and active forces ("torquing the handle"). With my DD I don't worry about that stuff at the moment...

 

[fanboi22]

The initial barrel movement for all good hitters has both rotational and linear components. The question is whether the rotation is purely reactive or due to both reactive and active forces ("torquing the handle"). With my DD I don't worry about that stuff at the moment...

IMO i guess it is something of both, as if it is only reactive without enough active forces on the grip, the bat would stay too far behind. Now maybe that is more of a question whether the Hands vs arms are active/reactive. Some have argued that the hands are loose and the arms are what holds it together. i still think you would have the same issue, and not sure you can separate the muscles in the forearm vs wrists, as i think those muscles drive the wrists actions.

I think it is the active feel of holding the arms and hands tight with the ability of the hands to slightly alter for pitch height. Turn the triangle as some have said. Reactive to me is like a slinky where by pulling the one side, the other will not start going until there is enough resistance. That would be lack of connection in my mind. This slinky action imo results in arm bar and bat drag.

So whether you term it as active or reactive, as long as you are keeping connection and not allowing the leak (slinky effect), then the barrel will move as a result of the torso turn at that same speed until whip.

I do not think however, that the barrel will be activate by anything prior to that connection move. Otherwise there will be dumping and other issues. Which we have seem in practice.

 

[_MIA_]

IMO i guess it is something of both, as if it is only reactive without enough active forces on the grip, the bat would stay too far behind. Now maybe that is more of a question whether the Hands vs arms are active/reactive. Some have argued that the hands are loose and the arms are what holds it together. i still think you would have the same issue, and not sure you can separate the muscles in the forearm vs wrists, as i think those muscles drive the wrists actions.

I think it is the active feel of holding the arms and hands tight with the ability of the hands to slightly alter for pitch height. Turn the triangle as some have said. Reactive to me is like a slinky where by pulling the one side, the other will not start going until there is enough resistance. That would be lack of connection in my mind. This slinky action imo results in arm bar and bat drag.

So whether you term it as active or reactive, as long as you are keeping connection and not allowing the leak (slinky effect), then the barrel will move as a result of the torso turn at that same speed until whip.

I do not think however, that the barrel will be activate by anything prior to that connection move. Otherwise there will be dumping and other issues. Which we have seem in practice.

Who knows..hitting is too hard now..used to be easier when I played Too much instruction with my kid and she ends up swinging like a 1-legged baby giraffe

 

[Rolling Hard]

"as you see in Ortiz's case it isn't initially. "

Maybe not Initially but does turning the barrel and attempting to get early bat speed help achieve max speed at contact? I think the answer is obvious. Look at his time to contact time of .138. That is sick. He was a great hitter.