Diffrent pitches 12u pitchers should know

[Tazman]

Everything I have read says that women (and maybe men too) do not throw hard enough, with enough spin, to allow the ball to go above the plane the ball would travel without gravity, so in that sense they do not "rise". Riseballs work because they drop (from that plane I mentioned) less than fastballs and look enough like fastballs to mess with the brain's ability to extrapolate from previous data. On that note, do they have riseball machines for softball like they do for sliders,curves etc in baseball?

Yes... We have access to a three wheel machine that throws a rise, drop, curve, screw, and combos. Agree with your assessment of a rise dropping less. I've noticed in this debate there is one camp focused on altitude changes and whether they happen (usually saying no) and another focused on trajectory differences (rise causing the illusion of rising because spin reduces the impact of gravity). That difference in perspective is usually good for a 50 post thread. While I tend toward the trajectory camp (spin can't overcome gravity but appears like it can), it is interesting to note that altitude does sometimes rise due to trajectory at release (hand low, ball headed higher) aided by spin which reduces gravity induced drop (and therefore pitch finishing at the numbers or higher in many cases).

 

[DrRiello]

If a pitch with riseball spins drops less slowly than a pitch of the same velocity with no spin, then, depending on your frame of reference, you could say that the ball is rising (right Pattar). Plus, the spin on the ball plays tricks on the eye. That being said, why wouldn't a riseball work at any age as long as you impart the right spin and have reasonable velocity? Also, I believe it has been established that no riseballs actually rise.

A rise without velocity just doesn’t drop as much. A rise at 70 will jump and has been shown to elevate some. (Rise)
A rise thrown consistently slow will get crushed like any other pitch.
As far as perception, oh yeah it plays mind games with hitters. Looks lower than it is.


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[_MIA_]

Yes... We have access to a three wheel machine that throws a rise, drop, curve, screw, and combos.

Have you found that training with it transfers to games?

While I tend toward the trajectory camp (spin can't overcome gravity but appears like it can), it is interesting to note that altitude does sometimes rise due to trajectory at release (hand low, ball headed higher) aided by spin which reduces gravity induced drop (and therefore pitch finishing at the numbers or higher in many cases).

Sure, the ball can cross the plate above where it is released but nothing I have read says it is possible (with the velocity and spin possible) that it can be above where it would be had there been no gravity. That said, that doesn't really matter. The deception of it (just like the deception of a CU and what makes a slider so difficult to hit in baseball) is what matters in terms of hitting.

 

[schwabach]

When I used to catch for my daughter during pitching lessons, sometimes her pitch would seem to jump, but that is not physically possible. That has to be an optical illusion. A ball can curve and a ball will appear to drop off the table as it slows down, but hoppy and jumpy balls happen when the spin plays tricks on your eyes.

WATCH: The optical illusion that makes it so hard to hit a curveball

Here's a video explaining the optical illusion that makes it so hard to hit a curveball.

www.cbssports.com

Also, riseballs don't rise above the plane on which they are thrown.

Thanks Magnus: Physics defines softball’s signature pitch - Student Life

If you ever have a free afternoon, head over to the softball field on the west end of the South 40. It doesn’t matter if it’s cold or windy or a little wet—suck it up because you’re going to witness something neat. With any luck, you’ll see her, Annie Pitkin, the righty ace of the Washington...

www.studlife.com

 

[DrRiello]

Have you found that training with it transfers to games?

Sure, the ball can cross the plate above where it is released but nothing I have read says it is possible (with the velocity and spin possible) that it can be above where it would be had there been no gravity. That said, that doesn't really matter. The deception of it (just like the deception of a CU and what makes a slider so difficult to hit in baseball) is what matters in terms of hitting.

I think release angle is more applicable than release point.
Meaning, unless a ball is thrown at a point off the ringers and say is level to the ground as it’s trajectory if the ball ends above or below the trajectory determines its movement. I think you would agree. So the same holds woth a rise or drop etc. rise trajectory is an angle up. But does the ball elevate above the trajectory or a drop below. A rise thrown with say 42rps and 68mph will end up slightly above the original trajectory. As do fast balls end up higher than the lowest point of the pitch. Ie it rises.


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[_MIA_]

I think release angle is more applicable than release point.
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Where did I say it wasn't? All I said was that it can cross the plate above where it is released..and yes that depends on the initial trajectory it is put on which is dependent on release angle..

 

[schwabach]

I haven't found any studies by physicists showing that a rise ball released on a perfectly horizontal trajectory ends up above the release point.

 

[_MIA_]

I haven't found any studies by physicists showing that a rise ball released on a perfectly horizontal trajectory ends up above the release point.

Think about that for a second... What is the release point for a 6' pitcher and where do some riseballs cross the plate (e.g. at a hitter's eyes..)

 

[DrRiello]

Where did I say it wasn't? All I said was that it can cross the plate above where it is released..and yes that depends on the initial trajectory it is put on which is dependent on release angle..

That can be above where it would be had there been no gravity. What did you mean by that then? And I’m honestly just asking a question since you’ve already agreed with me it really doesn’t matter but that’s what you said so I’m curious.


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[_MIA_]

That can be above where it would be had there been no gravity. What did you mean by that then? And I’m honestly just asking a question since you’ve already agreed with me it really doesn’t matter but that’s what you said so I’m curious.


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Point at x=0 is the release point. Red line is trajectory without gravity (or spin). Black line would be trajectory
with gravity and spin. Riseball never gets above red line but it can be higher (larger y) than the y value at x=0.




I feel like I have had this conversation about 10 times on here