Curveball Twist and Turn? Corkscrew Curve video

[erniekru]

This is beyond wrong. You can't even put Abbot and Osterman into a category with top level men's FP pitchers. Their top speed would be that of a change up to someone who pitches on a middle of the pack team, not even one of the best. And this isn't a secret, they know this. I've had plenty of conversations with both about pitching, other pitchers, etc. Take either of these pitchers, make them pitch against a men's team, between moving back another 3 feet (men pitch from 46 feet), their back swing (hitters would know what's coming well in advance), and their lack of ability to throw is past a anyone would be a recipe for disaster. Quite simply, they don't have the speed to blow it past a hitter with men's FP experience.

Last month in Dallas, I had a convo with Kellani Ricketts about the above type situation. She mentioned that a casino in California was considering a team in the NPF, and as a promotion they put Rickett's NPF team in an exhibition game vs a men's team. The men's team had Tony Mancha pitching, who's a very good pitcher. Ricketts said it wasn't even close.

Both Cat and Monica have pretty good spins on their pitches. Monica has more side spin (not bullet spin, more like a curveball) on her rise than Cat does but they both have the closest I've seen to "correct spin" on other pitches, which is why they are among the top 2 in the world for the ladies. Right now, Garcia's best weapon at the international level is that she's an unknown. The Japanese haven't seen much (if any) of her. She will be USA's #1 going forward, no question. Unfortunately, the USA women will be back to reality after this year without the Olympics... struggling for funding.

You did a lot of explaining over something that I didn't really comment on (or didn't mean to comment on).. What I was trying to infer is that Garcia is in the VERY rarefied air of truly top level pitching, she's not throwing "hanging curves" because her spin isn't DFP approved.

Comparing men vs women was not what I was trying to do.. That doesn't work for golf, weight lifting, fastpitch, darts, or really anything. Elite men pitchers can be at the top of their game (for me, I'm not at all interested in it) just the same as elite women pitchers can be at the top of their game. Garcia is a elite level pitcher.

 

[ArmWhip]

Or Osterman?

I attended a seminar many years ago where Cat Osterman was a speaker. She said that she threw a 'corkscrew' fastball, but that she didn't throw it very often. There is video of Finch, Scarborough and Ueno throwing bullet spin. The videos are not game footage so we have no idea if they are like Cat and Lisa, they throw bullet spin but not in games. Fastball spin is not defined as far as I know. Most of my students throw top spin fastballs, I steer them in that direction, should I tell them that they are throwing a drop? It would probably make their parents happy, and Bill too.

 

[Bonesaw]

To not put Garcia in the same grouping as Abbot and Osterman or any elite mens pitchers is crazy... The only thing that Garcia doesn't have is years of age.

Did you really infer that because of Garcia's spin she's throwing "hanging curves"?

I think I said slider. But Spin is pretty important. So say the stats anyways. And some pretty good pitchers/coaches too.

This video is pretty cool.



His fastball "breaks" 10 inches due to spin. Or drops 10" less than it should for the velo. His curveball "breaks" 7 inches due to spin. Or drops 7 inches more than it should for the velo.(speed change obviously makes it also effective). So his fastball "breaks" more than his curveball.

This game is also interesting.



(Edit: you could skip to the 6 and 7th innings since Abbot no hit them for the first 5.)

Anecdotal evidence, but I wonder what the florida 1b thought about Abbot vs Garcia's stuff.

Garcia is a very very good pitcher obviously(and hitter/player). But, I dont know why it's hard to say her riseball would be better with some backspin.

Im interested to see how much we see her in the circle in the big games in the olympics.

 

[ArmWhip]

I can't believe that they still let Abbot get away with taking a small step with her push off foot.

 

[radness]

I never understood a "drop curve". Why not just throw an outside drop? Why take a chance on one of the two things (drop or curve) don't work? With an outside drop, if it doesn't go down, at least you have an outside pitch. Isn't that better than the pitch not breaking and hanging over the plate? If your kid throws an amazing "drop curve" then great. But, I've seen way too many that didn't end up doing either, going over the plate, and ending up in the parking lot. Play it safe: throw an outside dropball. Heck, most of the kids I work with (who have a coach thinking they need 8 pitches, including a drop curve) I tell them to throw an outside drop when that pitch is called and if they hit the spot, the coach won't know the difference anyway. Same for the "screwball", I tell them to throw an inside drop since there's still far too many coaches that believe in this crap.

Drop Curve = batter makes 2 adjustments.

Drops usually straight pitch moves dowdown.
Curve goes east west.
Drop curve goes east/west & south.

But you know that already.

 

[radness]

You did a lot of explaining over something that I didn't really comment on (or didn't mean to comment on).. What I was trying to infer is that Garcia is in the VERY rarefied air of truly top level pitching, she's not throwing "hanging curves" because her spin isn't DFP approved.

Comparing men vs women was not what I was trying to do.. That doesn't work for golf, weight lifting, fastpitch, darts, or really anything. Elite men pitchers can be at the top of their game (for me, I'm not at all interested in it) just the same as elite women pitchers can be at the top of their game. Garcia is a elite level pitcher.

How i interpret/read Mr.B posts.
He has a hard time acknowledging that woman are outstanding because he tends to compare woman to mens game all the time.
When the few times he gets off his
'Mens game band wagon'...
He can get back to pitching topics.

All in all have read MR.B acknowledge the differences in men vs. woman pitching.
But its important for him to know and say
men throw harder.
That distinction is really important to him.
Yet really irrelevant when talking about the top womans pitchers!

 

[Hillhouse]

You did a lot of explaining over something that I didn't really comment on (or didn't mean to comment on).. What I was trying to infer is that Garcia is in the VERY rarefied air of truly top level pitching, she's not throwing "hanging curves" because her spin isn't DFP approved.

Comparing men vs women was not what I was trying to do.. That doesn't work for golf, weight lifting, fastpitch, darts, or really anything. Elite men pitchers can be at the top of their game (for me, I'm not at all interested in it) just the same as elite women pitchers can be at the top of their game. Garcia is a elite level pitcher.

Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote about putting Garcia in the company of Abbott and Osterman or "any elite mens pitchers" but the way that was worded made it sound like you were comparing.

Personally, I think people like Osterman and Fernandez say the word "fastball" for it's all encompassing meaning. Neither throws one this pitch in games or practices it so I doubt they pay much attention to how they throw it. Cat has only recently going into doing lessons, we didn't speak much about this pitch when we talked pitching. Lisa cannot do lessons as a NCAA coach (unless it's in groups of 4 or clinics). But I'm sure they both use the term generically with young pitchers.

 

[radness]

Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote about putting Garcia in the company of Abbott and Osterman or "any elite mens pitchers" but the way that was worded made it sound like you were comparing.

Personally, I think people like Osterman and Fernandez say the word "fastball" for it's all encompassing meaning. Neither throws one this pitch in games or practices it so I doubt they pay much attention to how they throw it. Cat has only recently going into doing lessons, we didn't speak much about this pitch when we talked pitching. Lisa cannot do lessons as a NCAA coach (unless it's in groups of 4 or clinics). But I'm sure they both use the term generically with young pitchers.

This was a nice thing to read.
With a good point at the end.
Generically speaking to young pitchers.
in a way acknowledges there are other conversations had when speaking of a better accomplished technical pitcher.
Good to see when you speak to both levels Mr.B!

 

[Hillhouse]

How i interpret/read Mr.B posts.
He has a hard time acknowledging that woman are outstanding because he tends to compare woman to mens game all the time.
When the few times he gets off his
'Mens game band wagon'...
He can get back to pitching topics.

All in all have read MR.B acknowledge the differences in men vs. woman pitching.
But its important for him to know and say
men throw harder.
That distinction is really important to him.
Yet really irrelevant when talking about the top womans pitchers!

I don't think that's true Rad. And I don't think I have a problem acknowledging the difference. Heck, I'm surrounded by the difference every moment of every day.

But, I will say this. Men's fastpitch is almost gone with the dinosaurs. Everything we see in softball today is traced back to the history of men's softball in the ASA. And when it's gone, history of the game of fastpitch softball will probably be rewritten, as many seem to want to do today. Everything in the softball world that exists today can be traced back to the times when men's softball was booming in the USA. That promoted ASA into the governing body, which went to work with NCAA, then the NFCA, and now ultimately the Olympics. I'm willing to bet more than 1/2 of the people in the softball world today don't even realize that men still play fastpitch softball, and even a fewer % of that have ever seen it. Yes, I think that's sad. I said on a Facebook group the other day how much I wished people who talk so much about softball absolutes in hitting and pitching would actually try the game for themselves. No, I'm not saying they have to tryout for the National team or play in the ISC World championship. There are 60 and over divisions, 55 over, 50 over, 45 and over, and all kinds of lower divisions not associated with age. It would change a lot about what is written about pitching and hitting, and more importantly would change a lot about what is taught. People who love this game so much that they teach it to kids every night should try it themselves, put their theories and thoughts into practice. But I digress.

I fully acknowledge the difference of the sexes. And Rad, 99% of the time that I'm talking about men's softball on here is when someone asks a question about it... which happens often. In this case, I responded to the following comment: To not put Garcia in the same grouping as Abbot and Osterman or any elite mens pitchers is crazy... And apparently I misunderstood what that meant, which I acknowledged in a separate post. The way I read that, the poster was saying Garcia was as good as Osterman, Abbot, and any elite men's pitcher.

I'll definitely pay attention in the future about how much I talk about it, and think twice before making another post that references it!