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[Chris O'Leary]

A few years ago a HS coach told my daughter she was rolling her wrists at contact. I thought the coach was nuts because I knew my daughter's swing and she was not a wrist roller. I even videotaped her to prove it.

Then one day I saw what the coach thought she saw. The problem wasn't rolling the wrists at contact. It was being so early she was making contact when her wrists were rolling over -- well past the point where she should be hitting the ball. Tough to hit the ball well when you're that early.

Absolutely.

In my experience, rolling the wrists is rarely a primary problem. Instead, it's usually a symptom of something else (like being early).

 

[BoardMember]

Mark says:

"Restraining torque keeps the barrel from flopping against the body when you begin to rotate."

and as studies such as the Rod Cross study show, the swing requires this early "positive couple" or what Nyman calls "holding torque" to prevent "drag"/slow acceleration.

Now, sequence wise is this force applied at the same time the shoulders rotate or after or before ?

I vote for before. Always.

If it is before, it has to be by live and independent hand/arm action and shoulders are not going first.

In fact, shoulders are not going first and when they DO go, they initially resist turning.

Spoken like a true "arm chair hitter" Tom. The simple fact that the hands are "live and independent" means the shoulders have to GO to get a head start.........Because the hands are SO fast.......Otherwise....the hands would push straight out to contact.....

The basic premise you are standing on is the hands are telling the shoulders to turn..........I get that........But IF you'd pick up a bat and swing it........You'd see that the sequence you are "pushing" (litterally) with the hands telling the shoulders what to do causes exactly what we don't want.......The hands can't keep the shoulders rotating in front of them BECAUSE they are independent and FAST........Hense, they PUSH to contact........The hands are SO much faster then the shoulders, that they will PASS the turn and push out to contact, stopping the shoulders EARLY......

In order to keep things to "progress" into lag, the shoulders MUST TRY to beat the hands to contact........They won't of course.........But they NEED to try..........And this keeps them turning longer........

In this clip.........It's pretty obvious that the hands are NOT telling the shoulders when to turn.........But the shoulders ARE telling the hands to fire when they's progressed enough to continue turning as the hands do their thing.......

Notice when the hands turn the corner and begin their path to contact, the shoulders IMMEDIATELY begin to decel........IF this happens TO EARLY, you MUST PUSH EM..........

If you like to think the "hips grab the hands" I'm good with that.......But they don't grab the hands until the shoulders link em up and begin to turn.............

 

[ssarge]

In my experience, rolling the wrists is rarely a primary problem. Instead, it's usually a symptom of something else (like being early).

A good point by Chris.

I would extend the point further.

Any of the problems we SEE in a swing (w/ the naked eye) are almost always precipitated by upstream problems which are causal in nature. VERY few problems develo late in a swing. Almost always, what we see later in the swing is merely a manifestation.

And the fact is, most "fixes" treat symptoms, not causes.

Regards,

Scott

 

[Mark H]

Mark says:

"Restraining torque keeps the barrel from flopping against the body when you begin to rotate."

and as studies such as the Rod Cross study show, the swing requires this early "positive couple" or what Nyman calls "holding torque" to prevent "drag"/slow acceleration.

Now, sequence wise is this force applied at the same time the shoulders rotate or after or before ?

I vote for before. Always..

I vote for early enough to make the bat do what you need it to do.

If it is before, it has to be by live and independent hand/arm action and shoulders are not going first.

In fact, shoulders are not going first and when they DO go, they initially resist turning.

The hips go first. Of course the shoulders resist turning. Any object at rest resists being put in to motion.

 

[Mark H]

A good point by Chris.

I would extend the point further.

Any of the problems we SEE in a swing (w/ the naked eye) are almost always precipitated by upstream problems which are causal in nature. VERY few problems develo late in a swing. Almost always, what we see later in the swing is merely a manifestation.

And the fact is, most "fixes" treat symptoms, not causes.

Regards,

Scott

There's a post worthy of a sticky.

 

[Wellphyt]

A few years ago a HS coach told my daughter she was rolling her wrists at contact. I thought the coach was nuts because I knew my daughter's swing and she was not a wrist roller. I even videotaped her to prove it.

Then one day I saw what the coach thought she saw. The problem wasn't rolling the wrists at contact. It was being so early she was making contact when her wrists were rolling over -- well past the point where she should be hitting the ball. Tough to hit the ball well when you're that early.

That's exactly what happens.

 

[ifubuildit]

Great point Scott.

A good point by Chris.

I would extend the point further.

Any of the problems we SEE in a swing (w/ the naked eye) are almost always precipitated by upstream problems which are causal in nature. VERY few problems develo late in a swing. Almost always, what we see later in the swing is merely a manifestation.

And the fact is, most "fixes" treat symptoms, not causes.

Regards,

Scott

I would also submit that unless your acutely aware of those problems that are casual in nature your hitters will not progress past a certain level. A dilemma that many rec and select coaches have unless they spend some serious time in study of their hitters. Which many do not. Its a one size fits all in their world. Nature of the beast in most cases due to time management skills or lack of said skills. Ingnorance with good intentions. Can safely say I was there too at one time. We probably all were.

Dana.

 

[tom.guerry]

let's try to avoid the personal aspersions.

I do not think the shoulders are resisting turning with the hips by inertia alone, rather the more thye support the hands in turning the bat rearward at GO in a steeper plane than the hips turn, the more resistance there is, the more the hands stay back and the more the hands can control/adjust the loading of the torso.

the palms start getting flat/bat starts untipping before GO/before shoulder turn for the high level pattern to work. the hands are not only telling the shoulde to turn, they themselves are turning before the shoulders turn.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

the hands are not only telling the shoulde to turn, they themselves are turning before the shoulders turn.

Not in good swings.

 

[Ken Krause]

let's try to avoid the personal aspersions.

Agreed. Stick to the subject, leave the personal stuff out. I don't care who likes who or what anyone thinks of anyone else's opinion. Treat all with respect or don't post. Or be gone.