Calling pitches - by the parents?

[MaverickAH]

First off you are talking about calling pitches, no someone yelling pitch location to a batter, secondly you are talking NCAA which has a completely different rule set. No such rule exists in any of the other associations I am aware of. Even college players when on base will signal the pitch location. There is no rule against it and the umpire has absolutely no authority to stop it or control it.

If you expect professionalism out of an umpire, then you should expect them to enforce the rules as written. Any umpire that attempts to enforce "unwritten" rules will most likely end up with a protest on their hands. There is no rule support for an umpire to enforce any of these supposed infractions.

Have you read an Umpire Manual for any of the associations? If you did, you'd realize that an umpire does have the power to cover incidents that are outside the rules. In ASA, Rule 10.1 covers this.

Let me ask you this? Would you allow a coach or a player to stand behind the backstop & give instructions/signals? Of course not! The same thing extends to spectators. An umpire should instruct them to cease the behavior or remove themselves from that area. Failure to comply could result in ejection from the facility. FTR, I have seen it happen.

The behavior, at the very least, is unsportsmanlike & an umpire does have the right to take action when viewed in that light.

 

[Comp]

Yes, I have read the umpire manual and trying to use rule 10 to cover things it was not meant to is beyond the intent of the rule. The umpires authority begins when they enter the field of play and ends when they leave the field of play. Spectators are not within the field of play.

Coaches and players being outside of team areas are specifically covered in the rules and are not allowed to be outside of those areas. Trying to use rule 10 as a catch all was never the intent of the rule. Again, just because you may have seen it done does not make it right. What you have seen and what is actually covered in the rules are two completely different things.

 

[cuzmail]

OK, so the umpires on the forum are saying that there is no rule allowing a PU or FU to remove or control a parent/fan outside of the fences.

If that is true, then what happens if an umpire gives an "order" to a parent/fan in the stands or behind the plate and they don't comply? If there is no rule allowing the "order", then does the parent/fan have to listen? If the parent/fan doesn't do what can the umpire demands, then what can the umpire do that is enforceable?

 

[Ajaywill]

OK, so the umpires on the forum are saying that there is no rule allowing a PU or FU to remove or control a parent/fan outside of the fences.

If that is true, then what happens if an umpire gives an "order" to a parent/fan in the stands or behind the plate and they don't comply? If there is no rule allowing the "order", then does the parent/fan have to listen? If the parent/fan doesn't do what can the umpire demands, then what can the umpire do that is enforceable?

Contact the tournament director, site administrator, UIC, police, or any one of several other people whose job it is to deal with spectators. If a spectator is to be removed, the game stops until that happens.

 

[cuzmail]

Contact the tournament director, site administrator, UIC, police, or any one of several other people whose job it is to deal with spectators. If a spectator is to be removed, the game stops until that happens.

Ok, got it.

What happens when the umpire attempts to remove the parent/fan without the UIC, police, or Guido and they don't comply? Do they have the authority to enforce their actions on a team or the game itself and if so under what authority? What happens when that offending parent/fan doesn't comply?

Not challenging your answer. I just want to know what happens in this situation.

 

[BrianMonk]

OK, so the umpires on the forum are saying that there is no rule allowing a PU or FU to remove or control a parent/fan outside of the fences.

If that is true, then what happens if an umpire gives an "order" to a parent/fan in the stands or behind the plate and they don't comply? If there is no rule allowing the "order", then does the parent/fan have to listen? If the parent/fan doesn't do what can the umpire demands, then what can the umpire do that is enforceable?

Ajaywill covered this but what they specifically said was that there was nothing in the rulebook regarding "umpiring" the fans. Umpires don't umpire the fans.

Fans are the responsibility of the TD or league board members or in occasional cases, the local police .

Where a lot of the confusion comes in is that in many rec. leagues and some tournaments, supplemental rules are added. In many rec. leagues, that "assumption" is that the umpire(s) is/are in charge of the fans. Nobody knows any better. They are all oblivious because, that's the way it's always been done.

In higher level tournaments, the umpires know exactly what their responsbilities entail and what they do not. They know how to handle fans, protests, etc... and it's very cut-n-dry. They don't concern themselves with someone calling out pitches, fans calling pitches, someone standing behind the backstop, etc.... It's a non-issue.

 

[cuzmail]

OK, I understand that. I also understand the supplemental tournament rules. I can't remember seeing many supplemental rules around here that gave any additional authority to the umpire when it came to spectators. We can say it is a non issue, but in reality it happens enough to be an issue wether they are authorized to do so or not.

I must not wording my question correctly. Let me try again.

What can the umpire do if someone they eject (or issue another order) doesn't comply? What authority does the umpire have to levy a penalty on either team if that someone doesn't comply. If they have no authority, then do the coaches have to accept the penalty or ending of the game prematurely?

Maybe an example is in order. Scenario:
Unruly fan behind the fence tipping pitches, questioning the strike zone, ..etc. Umpire notifies the coach associated with that spectator to have them stop or he will send that spectator to the parking lot. The spectator does not stop and the umpire ejects them from the field. The spectator refuses to leave so the umpire calls the game.

 

[Comp]

Locally, unless something has changed and Ajay can let me know if it has, we have been instructed that if no UIC or TD is available and we have a problem with a spectator, the coach is responsible for the behavior of their fans. The umpire is not to address the spectator directly, they are to approach the coach and have the coach handle the situation. If the coach cannot control, or refuses to control their spectator, the coach is to be ejected.

 

[Momo'sDad]

OK, I understand that. I also understand the supplemental tournament rules. I can't remember seeing many supplemental rules around here that gave any additional authority to the umpire when it came to spectators. We can say it is a non issue, but in reality it happens enough to be an issue wether they are authorized to do so or not.

I must not wording my question correctly. Let me try again.

What can the umpire do if someone they eject (or issue another order) doesn't comply? What authority does the umpire have to levy a penalty on either team if that someone doesn't comply. If they have no authority, then do the coaches have to accept the penalty or ending of the game prematurely?

Maybe an example is in order. Scenario:
Unruly fan behind the fence tipping pitches, questioning the strike zone, ..etc. Umpire notifies the coach associated with that spectator to have them stop or he will send that spectator to the parking lot. The spectator does not stop and the umpire ejects them from the field. The spectator refuses to leave so the umpire calls the game.

http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-discussions/14359-umpire-ejects-spectator-video.html

 

[PA SB Dad]

Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going.

As someone who has spent MANY times arguing with umpires, and have NEVER WON a call, I'm not sure arguing with the umpires here does any good either! But good luck to those of you who think you can win this one!