Buying into Peel vs Roll Over

[Pitching Dad]

Why do the peel drop and roll over drop...drop? They have the same spin as a fastball. Do you believe they have more rotations?

The FB and drop have the same spin (if thrown correctly) but it is the rate of spin that causes them to drop and the way they are released. You can "miss" a peel drop high and it wont drop. It's all about getting "on top of the ball" and releasing it back in your delivery. This is why so many teach to short step to try to get your body leaning foward so your release is back, causing your hand to have to spin the ball harder in order to throw it as a strike.

 

[LeftiesDad]

Why do the peel drop and roll over drop...drop? They have the same spin as a fastball. Do you believe they have more rotations?

Assuming the fastball is thrown with a 12-6 spin (not all are) then the biggest difference is trajectory. Drop ball starts low and stays low. A fastball can have the same profile but thrown with a slightly upward angle does not appear to drop as much because of that initial upward trajectory.

 

[sluggers]

The hand position at release for either a peel or a rollover is identical. So, the whole "peel vs rollover" debate is simply garbage. The argument results from a fundamental misunderstanding of how a drop ball is thrown. The only question is the amount of IR used when throwing a drop.

E.g.: A pitcher can throw a drop with no IR. (Men seem to be able to be strong enough to throw this, while women apparently can't.) A pitcher can throw a drop with some IR, like Amanda Scarborough. Other pitchers, like Osterman, put even more IR on the ball, resulting in the characteristic "hand pointing down" position at release. Still other pitchers, like my DD, go so far as to IR the entire arm at release rather than simply the forearm.

Take a look at Osterman throwing a drop. Osterman Drop That is not a peel. Previously, I posted some some pictures of my DD's hand at release. My DD theoretically throws a rollover. My DD's hand position at release is identical to Osterman's. My DD exaggerates the IR even more than Osterman.

Look at Amanda Scarborough drop: Scarborough Drop Scarborough has IR, but does not exaggerate the follow-through

If you want to have more fun, watch the USA softball video by Cat explaining how to throw a drop: Cat's instructional video Then, look at the way she releases the ball in her drop ball demo pitches. In some pitches she has IR, and in others she doesn't.

In reality, "rollover" and "peal" are simply two sides of the same coin. Instead of endlessly debating rollover vs. peel, we should be discussing the amount of IR needed to get a good drop.

As to this whole, "Men throw peel drops"...a 30 or 40 YOA man has much, much more wrist and hand strength than a 12-18 YOA girl. It isn't relevant.

 

[Ade's Dad]

How MANY YEAR HAVE YOU BEEN DOING IT. IF YOU THROW IT OUT THERE, BE READY TO BACK IT UP TOO. Hillhouse doesn't change his mech to throw a peel drop and doesn't use a hello elbow to do it, nor does he teach it. Osterman doesnt hello elbow her peel drop. So how many years have you been doing this?

About 6 years. You?

 

[lhowser]

Len, I would assume this to be the case most of the time. I also believe that, some of the time, it drops simply due to the fact that some girls throw it as an off-speed, so gravity takes it's toll.

Good input. I brought it up because one top intructor and I think he is correct says the difference is trajectory exclusively. The fastball starts slightly up so it battles gravity. the different techniques for a drop - early release, peel (which causes early release), rollover (which creates early release and a flatter plane) and leaning forward (which raises the back hip and creates a flatter plane) are all cues to accomplish the same thing - capture or throw the ball on a flatter plane and let gravity and the normal fastball 12-6 spin do the rest.

This same instructor says you can learn the drop simply by adjusting the release point earlier with lots of practice. After trying this it seemed like it would be a tough concept for my dd so we decided to do a rollover and finish palm down. Not because of the extra spin. She understands they are mechanical cues to help her release early and sort of capture or limit the upward trajectory of the ball by feeling like she is working her hand over the top. We are also lifting the back shoulder a bit - all with the idea of having a flatter plane. Early on we are getting some good results.

 

[Ade's Dad]

About 10 years, but that doesn't mean that anyone knows all. We all learn something new every once in a while. Remember the world was flat at one time I learn something new all the time. I have lived near where Bill lives for ever and found out about him, later then I wished I have. That was only about 6 years ago, but didn't get my dd out to him only a couple of years ago. But I knew that something was wrong about what they were teaching about 7 years ago. 7 years to long with out guidance.

Thanks. i was just wondering.

 

[BoardMember]

IMO, this is the most intelligent post I've read regarding drop since I wrote about it myself sometime ago here........

Both mechanisms impart forward spin on the ball.......The amount of "spin perfection" (purity) is directly relative to the amount of PRACTICE one puts in working on the release of the particular style. IMO, the rolled "peel" is easier to vary speeds with, both faster AND slower.........And is rarely missed high in the zone............

As a side note, the drop I THREW during my career was a "split finger" peel, whereby I split my index and middle fingers as FAR APART as possible over the long seam imparting the maximum forward spin with the least amount of friction/contact on the surface........So yes, men can do what most young women cannot possible control/accomplish.........

Nice job Sluggers.........

The hand position at release for either a peel or a rollover is identical. So, the whole "peel vs rollover" debate is simply garbage. The argument results from a fundamental misunderstanding of how a drop ball is thrown. The only question is the amount of IR used when throwing a drop.

E.g.: A pitcher can throw a drop with no IR. (Men seem to be able to be strong enough to throw this, while women apparently can't.) A pitcher can throw a drop with some IR, like Amanda Scarborough. Other pitchers, like Osterman, put even more IR on the ball, resulting in the characteristic "hand pointing down" position at release. Still other pitchers, like my DD, go so far as to IR the entire arm at release rather than simply the forearm.

Take a look at Osterman throwing a drop. Osterman Drop That is not a peel. Previously, I posted some some pictures of my DD's hand at release. My DD theoretically throws a rollover. My DD's hand position at release is identical to Osterman's. My DD exaggerates the IR even more than Osterman.

Look at Amanda Scarborough drop: Scarborough Drop Scarborough has IR, but does not exaggerate the follow-through

If you want to have more fun, watch the USA softball video by Cat explaining how to throw a drop: Cat's instructional video Then, look at the way she releases the ball in her drop ball demo pitches. In some pitches she has IR, and in others she doesn't.

In reality, "rollover" and "peal" are simply two sides of the same coin. Instead of endlessly debating rollover vs. peel, we should be discussing the amount of IR needed to get a good drop.

As to this whole, "Men throw peel drops"...a 30 or 40 YOA man has much, much more wrist and hand strength than a 12-18 YOA girl. It isn't relevant.

 

[sluggers]

BM and I discussed this some time ago. He helped me understand what was "really" going on with the drop. The peel and the rollover are not two different pitches. They are the same pitch. The only difference is the amount of IR that a pitcher uses when she throws the pitch.

There was a kid who was getting no movement on her peel drop. So, after my discussions with BM, I suggested she start adding a little IR to her release. Bingo...the ball started dropping. She doesn't have the movement my DD has, but she isn't trying to use the drop as her "go to" pitch.

My DD on the other hand, needed the sharp, huge drop to have success in college. And, she got it by really IRing her arm. (I do *NOT* recommend what my DD did.)

The point is that it is not "either you throw a peel or you throw a rollover". It is continuum. If people understood more about how the drop works, then they could better help pitchers develop an effective and safe drop.

Ray

 

[RubberBiscuit]

OK BM & Sluggers - Please address these contentions for me :

At release of the ball:

The peel drop has the fingertips directly under the wrist (fingertips at 6pm and the wrist at 12)

The roll-over drop has the fingertips more towards 3pm from the wrist.

Right?

Yes the spin on the ball can be the "same" in the end BUT the lever on the ball is coming from different angle origins. (I think this IS a big difference)

I have caught and have seen loads of pitchers around the country and I will submit that at full speed the roll-over will produce a stronger break. This is only based on what I have seen.....

But I always concluded that the angle-lever that the roll-over drop imparts is stronger.

(But I will submit that I do like the more "invisibility" of the Peel than the many time more pronounced diffferent look of the Roll-over. My DD does a roll-over full speed drop and an off-speed Peel. I LOVE the way these two pitches have complimented her bread-n-butter - the RB)

 

[wildcat]

Thanks for the help. Many of us are limited to what is put out there on the net. This is the first that I've found and understood more of what goes on with the drop. We have an old school coach in the area who teaches the "rollover" and by watching what he asks of the arm & shoulder, I found myself reluctant to let my 12 year old start with that.

This is now much clearer.