Breaking Pitches; Spin vs Speed

[FPMark]

In another thread I got into a discusion with CoachFP about breaking pitches. Instead of highjacking the other thread, I'd like to continue the discusion as well as get other peoples opinion on this issue.

The question is: Does increasing speed cause a ball to break more or less?

I'll go first and say that I believe that speed will make the ball thrown with the same spin rate break less. In my opinion, the number of revolutions the ball makes between release and the plate determines how much the pitch moves. More speed gives the ball less time to spin so will lessen the number of revolutions. I also realize there are other variables involved, so I'd like to get other opinions.

 

[bobbyb]

I think your right...because the increase speed of the ball...which does increase magnus affect...doesn't have enough time to take affect because it gets to the batter faster.

Revfire states it this way:
{Spin Rate and Velocity
The Magnus force on a pitch is proportional to the spin rate and the velocity of the pitch (1). That means
that doubling the spin rate while holding the velocity constant will double the Magnus force and double the
amount of curve on a pitch. The more a pitcher can increase the spin rate on pitches, the more a batter will
be challenged.

Correspondingly, increasing the velocity on a curveball while keeping the spin rate constant will
proportionately increase the Magnus force as well, but since it is traveling faster the sideways deflection
will not be greater. This is because the ball makes it to the catcher’s glove in less time then the slower
ball; hence, the Magnus force has less time to act on pushing the ball sideways. }

I always think of Chelsea Thomas's drop ball...drops alot...alot of spin..and slower.

 

[starsnuffer]

A slower pitch with a fast spin will have "more movement" then a fast pitch with an equal spin, because the faster pitch has to overcome linear momentum. HOWEVER, the faster pitch will have a sharper and later break, which is what you are looking for in a breaking pitch. That slow, predictable curve ball is easy to hit. That fast curve with the unexpected break is the killer. The slower pitch just has an offset release to make up for whatever extra predictable movement it has.

-W

 

[FPMark]

Ricketts' curve breaks A LOT and it is in the upper 60s. I have no idea about physics, but I think if the spin is really tight you can throw it harder.

I also think that the break in softball is less pronounced than what you see in baseball, because they throw movement slower and fp pitchers really bring it. Sometimes softball break seems to me more like a hard baseball slider.

This is a good point. I have noticed that most SB pitchers tend to throw everything hard. Is this just how they are taught? I have seen people on here suggest that pitchers wait untill they can hit a certain speed before throwing breaking pitches. I also realize that you can't have an 8 foot arc and expect to have an effective drop ball.

Our #1 pitcher in HS this year can hit 62 mph with her fastball, but lived with her 54-56 mph breaking ball (drop, curve, screw, and change). She could really make the ball move. Made the FB virtualy unhittable. Only gave up one HR all year, in a 40 game season.

When I was catching (baseball), I caught many different pitchers who threw many different types of breaking pitches. Sometimes they would break too much, or not enough because, IMO, they were throwing them too hard or not hard enough. Don't have scientific proof, but I believe there is a speed for every pitch, depending on spin rate, where you can throw it to give it late movement. Because the velosity slows faster than the spin rate, if you hit the right speed, the ball will break more, later. We were always looking for that "sweet spot", by adding spin and decreasing speed, or decreasing spin and adding speed. I haven't seen this type of experimentation in SB.

 

[bobbyb]

When I was young we were throwing curves before 10 yrs old...not by being taught but on our own. So by Babe Ruth league and HS..we could experiment with it.

I watched a girl...year before last in Oklahoma...that threw nothing but drop balls. She had them all...slow, off speed, fast. Hi and low...In and out. Only time I have seen that. I was amazed with her spin and what she could do with it....it gave the other team a hard time for most of the game.

 

[CoachFP]

Let me throw out a question that may help in this discussion. If the ball breaks sharper when thrown harder doesn't that mean it breaks more? What does sharper mean? Also as bobbyb said "The Magnus force on a pitch is proportional to the spin rate and the velocity of the pitch". Seems like that is the answer. Throw it harder with the same spin and you increase the Magnus effect and make the pitch break better. Also my analogy of throwing into the wind and seeing the ball break considerably more is not just imagination it is real.

 

[starsnuffer]

To me, sharper is when the ball travels a the majority of the distance to the plate in a straight line, without breaking, and then breaks shortly 5-6 feet in front of the plate. This is where the surprise comes into play, and why picking pitches is important at higher levels. The ball that curves all the way in is predictable and easy to hit.

Remember, the bat is only a few inches wide. Balls do not need to move 2 feet, they only need to move a few inches. Timing is everything.

Also consider that a ball that drops 4 inches will probably be hit, but weakly on top of the ball for an easy infield out. A ball that drops 6 inches will either not be swung at or be missed. An out is far more useful then a strike. Many people forget that it is not the pitchers job to get strike outs, it is the pitchers job to force outs. High K counts are not always ideal.

-W

 

[CoachFP]

Starsnuffer, the ball never travels in a straight line. It may appear to, but in fact to throw as drop ball you need downward trajectory and for a rise ball, upward trajectory.

 

[starsnuffer]

Right, CoachFP. I keep assuming that is a well-established point (despite what some rise ball faithful believe). That's why I use the curve in all the examples rather then the drop. Gets really tricky explaining drop break vs gravity vs speed.

One oft-overlooked point is that softballs slow down much more then baseballs when thrown (or hit) due to the surface area of the ball. We often hear crazy reaction time numbers based on assumptions that a ball pitched at 70mph at the pitchers hand is actually still traveling 70mph when it crosses the plate. This just isn't the case. It's actually the deceleration of the ball that allows the transition from a "straight" pitch to a breaking pitch that makes those late breaks possible. The dominant physical forces are changing in flight allowing alternative energies to take control at different points.

-W

 

[Sweet Lou]

Good topic. I was thinking about this last night and broke out my copy of The Physics of Baseball Robert K. Adair, PhD and here is what was said on p 51-52

...For slow curves thrown with a definte spin rate, the deflection is approximately proportional to the square of the time the ball is in the air. Hence, a ball thrown with an intial velocity of 65 mph with a 1600-rpm spin, which takes about 8 percent longer to reach the plate than the 70 mph pitch, will curve nearly 15 percent more, even though the Magnus force is actually smaller.

..., the ball that travels 10 percent fater will break 20 percent less.

So which is better? Slower pitch with bigger break or faster pitch with smaller and likely later break?

I would argue that each can be equally effective if used properly.

FP Mark I think what you see is the girls who can throw hard are also the girls who are physically gifted enough to generate good spins to create break in the first place. That may be what lead to your initial observation that harder thrown balls break move. It was likely the girls who where not thorwing as hard were also not spining the ball enough.

But if you have a girl who can spin the ball a lot without great velocity, you may find that "junk baller" is just as effective as the "fire baller". If you look at MLB, some guys throw a curveball generally somewhere between 70 - 80 mhp and other guys throw a slider generally somewhere between 83 - 91 mph both speed depending on the pitcher but the CB is often 10 - 20 mph slower than their FB while a slider is generally 5-10 mph slower than their FB . The slider is harder later breaking pitch the curve ball is a bigger slower breaking pitch. If one was clearly easier to hit and thus an inferior pitch, it would probably disappear from the game but there have been hall of fame pitchers whose bread and butter pitch was the curve - Bert Blyleven and hall of hame pitchers whose bread and butter was the slider - Steve Carlton just to name a few examples and both pitches are still thrown by many MLB pitchers.