Bonds ... catching the ball with the bat.

[Work=wins]

The wrists do become loaded ... but not from 'hand' action.

I feel when finding direction that is when the wrists get loaded. That would be hand action dictating when the wrists get cocked. If you say the arms , which are connected to the hands.Ok then.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

I teach a knob approach. It's what makes most sense and most likely ensures a proper load and release of the barrel. Whip is the goal. You whip with the handle not the tip.

Golf instruction is very similar . If you have a club head centric thought. Your path will be anything but consistent . They attack down to on the inside portion of the ball with a handle dominant swing/release. Teaching whip of a barrel/club head is best understood from a handle/knob approach.

You use the knob/handle to whip not the tip.

"Whip" is a very end of the line byproduct (effect) that happens way out front, and is simply a result of all the other things that happen(ed) way upstream. It can be put in the same "buzz word" box as "launch angle", as something not to get lost in. IOWs, a cool marketing word, but not really something that is, should, or really can be taught directly (unless one is looking for an all out in front "wrist" hitter I suppose).

I've had too many "knob/hands to the ball" hitters come to me when they couldn't catch up to above 12U pitching simply because most kids are too literal in their application of cues, and some coaches actually have some of them doing this (not saying you do)....

I simply ask them if they really want to hit the ball with the knob or their hands, or with the barrel of the bat, and a light bulb comes on. Makes instruction pretty easy (or much easier anyway) from there on out.

Again, JMO...YMMV, and that's cool.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

MB, the notion of 'swinging down' isn't for everyone. Over the years I looked into the notion several times and tossed it aside. I do use the notion with several hitters currently, with the objective of realizing a compact swing with the hand-path that we are after.

Yes, I agree...more than one way to skin a cat.

From the RVP-Connection-Point-Position (i.e., upright power-vee) the barrel is thrown/swung into what can be thought of as an inverted-vee … added in ‘magenta’ below.

I get the hands portion of it, and why I said "focusing on barrel path, and subconsciously controlling it with the hands/handle", and I believe your gif shows just that.

Look how many red dots, and how much movement is in the barrel...long before the inverted magenta vee shows up on it. Are the hands controlling that? Of course. But also look at how long/far the barrel goes away from initially, then down, but not "to" the ball for much/most of that swing/barrel path.

"Technically", it doesn't start heading "to the ball" until basically your first pause (first magenta vee frame) in the gif, when it's just starting to get "around" the corner. And why I believe so many kids struggle with the mind set of swinging "down to the ball" when given that cue, and mindset.

Because heir usual first hand (and thus barrel) movement, is "to" the ball, and that's obviously not what either of us are looking for. JMO, and what I've seen from kids coming to me with that mindset, or previous training once again.

I find the notion of “keep the hands up” to be a big assist in helping hitters swing through an upright power-vee. I find it helps with the hand-path for hitters that like a mental objective … as opposed to a physical movement objective.

No objection to anything here teaching wise. I've just found over the years that the hand path takes care of itself once, and if you get the barrel path correct. Hard to drop your hands, and still have a barrel path similar to the one you're highlighting above or either of these...

Likewise the notion of “swing/throw the barrel down to the ball, NOT the hands” is also a good objective for those that prefer an objective based swing objective.

Combined … “keep the hands up, swing/throw the barrel down (not the hands)” helps hitters realize a good hand-path.

Agreed...but again, I'm more concerned in getting the barrel path correct, because I believe the good hand-path is simply a by product, or at least just a subconscious result of that.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

Prior to joining the various forums, my view was more 'hand centric'. As I started reading here and elsewhere, I started changing to 'barrel centric'. As I continue to learn, I find that hand path and barrel path are both important parts of the swing. If a hitter can create the hand path I am looking for AND create the right amount of torque, the desired barrel path will be the result.

When working with hitters, I find that each has different ways of looking at things. I try to modify my instruction to fit how they understand the principles.

I don't disagree, and this might all be "the chicken or the egg" conundrum of hitting instruction. =)

I simply use "barrel centric" because the proper barrel path is much easier to document, track, and see for young hitters, whereas the hands' movements controlling all of it...not so much.

For instance, a lot of the initial "torque" application that you mention happens with the hands basically in their initial starting position ("keep the hands up" as FFS states) with very little if any travel movement, and thus difficult for the hitter (and instructor) to see if they're doing it correctly, but is quite evident when looking at the initial barrel movement of the bat.

FFS' dot gif is a good example of that...

...where we see quite a good number of red dots of barrel movement, before we see the green and blue dots start, of when the hands begin their travel.

IMO, the initial red dots are the missing part in a lot of young hitters' swings, and hard to teach with "hand centric" teaching, and just much easier when teaching them through "barrel centric" instruction.

 

[FP26]

I simply use "barrel centric" because the proper barrel path is much easier to document, track, and see for young hitters, whereas the hands' movements controlling all of it...not so much.

For instance, a lot of the initial "torque" application that you mention happens with the hands basically in their initial starting position ("keep the hands up" as FFS states) with very little if any travel movement, and thus difficult for the hitter (and instructor) to see if they're doing it correctly, but is quite evident when looking at the initial barrel movement of the bat.

FFS' dot gif is a good example of that...

...where we see quite a good number of red dots of barrel movement, before we see the green and blue dots start, of when the hands begin their travel.

IMO, the initial red dots are the missing part in a lot of young hitters' swings, and hard to teach with "hand centric" teaching, and just much easier when teaching them through "barrel centric" instruction.

MB -- We are in agreement with all of this. The difference in my opinion is with the bold above. From previous conversations, I know that you are not a fan of some of today's technological tools. That's fine. You have been at this a long time and have the results to show for your methods. But this is a place where I think tools such as Zepp and Diamond Kinetics can be useful. The gif posted by FFS includes hand path and barrel path. Some of these new tools provide a view that is very similar to that gif. So an instructor can actually show a hitter how their hand path and barrel path both look. And then as changes are made, they can go back to this tool to actually see those changes. Again, this method isn't for everyone, but it is another tool in the tool box.

At least everyone agrees , hand path/barrel path are at the top of the list when it comes to teaching hitting. I feel my hands when I swing/hit . So that's how I teach it.

I would like to here how you go about teaching a barrel approach ffs/fp26? I'm always up for being schooled .

Work = wins -- The first session or two with a hitter is typically more of a feeling out process than anything. Not only am I reviewing a student's current movement pattern, but I am also trying to figure out what terms/phrases they currently use and feel comfortable with. The initial learning is mine. Once I determine the starting point, I can move on from there. My answer to MB above shows one of the approaches I may/may not use for an individual hitter.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

MB -- We are in agreement with all of this. The difference in my opinion is with the bold above. From previous conversations, I know that you are not a fan of some of today's technological tools. That's fine. You have been at this a long time and have the results to show for your methods. But this is a place where I think tools such as Zepp and Diamond Kinetics can be useful. The gif posted by FFS includes hand path and barrel path. Some of these new tools provide a view that is very similar to that gif. So an instructor can actually show a hitter how their hand path and barrel path both look. And then as changes are made, they can go back to this tool to actually see those changes. Again, this method isn't for everyone, but it is another tool in the tool box.

You're absolutely correct; as I never considered the knob attached "technological tools" that are out today, but can definitely see and better understand your point of how one would be able to teach "hand centric" mechanics with one of them if they so choose.

Not that I'm going to run out and buy one, but I can see how it could be another coaching tool for others who are looking for something different in their instruction. You once again make some good, and valid points wrt the discussion. Thanks for that, MB

 

[Work=wins]

"Whip" is a very end of the line byproduct (effect) that happens way out front, and is simply a result of all the other things that happen(ed) way upstream. It can be put in the same "buzz word" box as "launch angle", as something not to get lost in. IOWs, a cool marketing word, but not really something that is, should, or really can be taught directly (unless one is looking for an all out in front "wrist" hitter I suppose).

I've had too many "knob/hands to the ball" hitters come to me when they couldn't catch up to above 12U pitching simply because most kids are too literal in their application of cues, and some coaches actually have some of them doing this (not saying you do)....

I simply ask them if they really want to hit the ball with the knob or their hands, or with the barrel of the bat, and a light bulb comes on. Makes instruction pretty easy (or much easier anyway) from there on out.

Again, JMO...YMMV, and that's cool.

I like knob because once I show them how to create direction , release and EXTENSION are even easier to realize . They realize after about 20 balls, optimal POC is right in front of their front foot or right at the front foot(pitch location dependant). I explain that wherever the knob goes the barrel follows. Which creates a short direct path to the ball and shows the proper release.There are too many variables in hitting. I like to have a few concrete things the hitter can grasp and know are so. If a hitter is trying to hit the ball with the knob(never has happened to me) ( that gif is not how I teach it) well geez there's always the debate team. Getting to PROPER extension is found very quickly when they can get the barrel loaded and released very efficiently via knob with direction.

The knob and down to path is the quickest. Why? Because Barry said so. He talked about the hands and going down to. Hands meaning knob.Down to meaning barrel up.

As far as whip being a buzz word. I don't think so. I think it's the goal. Buzz words would be inside the ball, deep woosh, separation, launch angle, turn the barrel , coil etc. Those are the en vogue things people say so they can achieve the almighty WHIP.

Kevin Millar did a segment with mark de rosa on MLB network. They talked about launch angle. Millar set everyone straight . He said that Barry and himself were trying to achieve whip through keeping the 'barrel up and out.' Which meant taking the knob down to and getting to extension.

If you train the hands it only takes a lesson maybe 2 to get whip from a student. Does it take longer to get them to do it consistently? Yes. But not that long.I'll say again . If you train the hands , the body will follow. If the hands and brain have the right intent . Whip is not hard to achieve . No buzzwords needed.

Sequence with stretch , hands do their job.

Another note: has anyone noticed how active MLB network has been preaching proper mechanics lately. I wonder why? Hmmm. Too many bees buzzing on twitter maybe? Maybe not?

 

[rdbass]

I like knob because once I show them how to create direction ,

Can you please give an example. Can you further explain.

release and EXTENSION are even easier to realize .

I ask because first, I like the direction of the discussion. Second, I'm curious if you teach 'direction' of the knob I'm wondering how can a hitter 'realize' or get to extension.
My thoughts are if you tell a hitter 'knob to the ball' they seem to have a tendency to hold the 'hinge angle' and do release....
Do you like the new buzz word...'laser the knob to the ball'?
Example:

 

[Work=wins]

Can you please give an example. Can you further explain.

I ask because first, I like the direction of the discussion. Second, I'm curious if you teach 'direction' of the knob I'm wondering how can a hitter 'realize' or get to extension.
My thoughts are if you tell a hitter 'knob to the ball' they seem to have a tendency to hold the 'hinge angle' and do release....
Do you like the new buzz word...'laser the knob to the ball'?
Example:

I will tell the player, show me knob down to the ball (ball on outside corner)( me physically holding a ball on the outside corner).They will look at me funny. Then I'll say from there get the barrel down to the ball( with the rule of down to) Wala! Proper release and extension and POC is realized ...( done slowly dry) I will move the ball to the inside corner, show me knob to the ball there. Then show me proper release . Then I'll put on a tee, do Ryan braun drills(hands only). The outside pitch becomes the easiest thing ever( one students words). Sometimes the net drill will need to be implemented to feel the inside path better. I will do deep tee to help feel direction further down the line as well. Then after the hands I will implement a coil with sequence . In my exp. they are whipping by the end of the first lesson. There not done learning but they are definitely better than when they came. I work with 16s and 18s so they are further along mentally than the little ones. I teach it the way Albert Pujols demoed w Harold Reynolds on MLB network along time ago.

I don't mind lasering the ball... but I teach to stay through it, don't just slice through( hopefully makes sense ).I don't wanna sound like a jerk. But that told me that he just learned about hand path last year. Tsk tsk. Correct me if I'm wrong but I hadn't heard anything about handpath in his model until the lasering cue.

I basically use 1CAs model. With a few others tips and absolutes.

 

[Work=wins]

Pulling off the ball and pop ups are far and few between after the hand path becomes 'down to' IMO.