Back elbow initiates the swing?

[Ken Krause]

I just came across this cue again today. I'm pretty sure it comes out of RVP, and it's part of the NFCA's canon. Maybe it's me, but I think this is a terrible cue.

I think about all the hitters I've worked with who can't help but push their hands way back when they load, and then leave them there as they begin rotation. What happens? The back elbow comes forward, because somewhere deep down they know something should be coming forward, and before you know it they're in severe bat drag.

Seems to me that saying the back elbow initiates the swing will just encourage this situation even more. I can easily see a young girl hearing "the back elbow initiates the swing" and then pulling her back elbow as far forward as she can get. Most young girls are far more flexible than us old guys, too, so they can get into a bad situation a lot more easily. When I try to imitate what they're doing I can't even get my arms this way. No doubt this is one of those physical differences between males and females that Howard likes to point out.

Honestly, when I think about my swing the back elbow is the last thing I think about. I am much more focused on what my hips/core, shoulders and hands are doing.

So am I missing something here? Have any of you had success teaching this cue? And if so, how did you prevent it from going into bat drag?

 

[bosoxfan]

I think when people say this they are refering to slotting the rear elbow to start the swing.

 

[George R.]

Ken,

Skipping ahead in the swing to hand launch, I teach my hitters to pull the bottom hand forward and the top hand back. This causes the back elbow to slot quickly and it also causes the top hand to get palm up and the barrel of the bat into the zone early and more to the back of the zone. The pre-launch hand positon is at the rear shoulder and I teach wrapping the barrel behind the head and at a 35-45 degree angle. But, to your question, I don't teach back elbow as a queue.

 

[Hitter]

Ken

As I stated on you tube, it really makes no difference to me how some people believe what or how we teach actually works and it is the kids you are teaching that it counts the most as they represent the data of if it works or is not working.

The process by which we teach has to be totally understood and the progression we use is what we think works and it is associated during each step or phase.

While looking at swings or clips you see in my opinion after toe touch, the back elbow begins to lower and depending on the athlete the heel plant may be started too soon.

Coach Enquist does a great job in RVP in the softball program, in ADJUSTING.

You see the hitter recognize the speed of the pitch in two clips and one is slower and the other is faster and it appears to me as the clips are shot from behind, the back elbow is lowering and God forbide I mention the dreaded back elbow and hand appear to stack as connection is beginning and the heel plant and rotation are actively working.

For a slower pitch I see the elbow lowering slower as they are adjusting and for the faster pitch I see the elbow lowering faster and you see heel plant and the hip stop its forward movement so rotation can begin.

This is why we teach landing on the inside edge of the foot or eversion, verses being flat footed.

You wonder why they can not get the elbows understood and for me it is because weight shift is not taught properly from a throwing stand point and the house of cards unfolds.

The sequence is out of timing and it shows in their throwing and carries over to their hitting in my opinion.

The term connection has a lot of interpretation associated with it however how do we get the student to understand what it looks like and how would it feel if done right or wrong?

I use a rope and position them at bat lag so they can feel the pulling force associated with leading with the knob and stage the position of the elbows first manually. This in most cases is the central issue in the MLB ELITE SWING model that is argued the most and has a lot of opinions and everyone reviews the clips and sees something or explains it a little differently in my opinion.

This is why I made the helicopter bat as you can feel when it is right or wrong in my opinion.

You can see and feel the helicopter blade rotate smoothly if the hand and elbow are stacked.

If the hand is ahead of the back elbow it does not want to turn until the bat is more forward and you feel it.

If the hands are ahead you will notice you are pushing and contact is forward.

In my world if you are hitting grounders you are probably pushing or hand is ahead.

High fly balls or popping up and generally I associate this with the elbow getting ahead of the hands.

This is exactly why I mark the nets so I have a target area by which to see the angle of the ball leaving the bat.

If the ball goes left or right of center then I have a better idea what I need to do to correct the problem as I know where the ball should go based on the tee position and where the hitter measured off from.

I may add a side benefit of the helicopter bat was demonstrating if the elbow is too close to the hip and you loose power as the bat will actually go backwards because of the rubber cord attachment. You can physically feel the difference if the elbow is in too close or too far away.

The differences especially for the female is rounded shoulders that are narrower, wider hips, breast size and carrying angle of the females elbows which can be 4 to 10 degrees different than the males.The female gains more chest mass and not especially breast size when going through puberty than the male also.

The males in general have wider shoulders and are not as rounded and have narrower hips and this allows the elbow to stay closer.

Again the process of what we teach has progressions to it that we feel covers the swing in a unique way in our opinion.

We explain we want the elbows to work together as a unit and stay connected however as the back elbow lowers, how do you explain what the lead arm elbow does or feels like.

This is where the rope comes into teaching the feel of getting to connection and bat lag.

The lead elbow is explained as making a good first move and that is by moving forward and up a ramp verses just forward ( ground balls) or up (probably high fly balls or over the back stop foul balls) .

We have them take the top hand and turn it palm down and place our lead elbow on top of the back of the top hand and rest it there. We are wanting to show them the motion of the lead elbow. We say were the elbow was the hand will now be and they move the lead elbow forward and do not not loose contact with the back of the hand the elbow was resting on and keep moving it forward while the forearm will stay in contact and finally the lead hand will be where the elbow was. We point out the elbow is now at about the top of the shoulder and during the swing the tilt and turn of the shoulders will be adjusting.

The lead elbow will be above the plane of the pitch and the hands will be above the ball and the bat head will be below the hands or elbow, hands and bat head a slight angle depending on the pitch.

Thanks Howard

 

[Shawn]

Ken,

As you know the sequence happens from a proximal to distal sequence. I tried to explain this to Mankin many times although he could not see or believe the arms/hand/bat could be affected without shoulder rotation taking place. Thus, he continued to adhere to his theory on pre launch and THT. Over the years he has changed many things, although I think he would still not believe the bat can't be affected without shoulder rotation to cause it to move.

The bat is of course being the distal segment. The arms and hands are also a distal segment.

The torso is a proximal segment to the arms/bat. The torso is more massive then the arms and bat. The upper torso or thorax does not move at the same rate as the lower trunk, during this time the arm and bat will move to some degree and in many cases prior to actual shoulder rotation (or thorax).

The proximal segment to the arms is also the scapula complex, in which makes up the really only way to transfer energy from the body into the arms.

In many cases the arms and scap complex isn't fully connected until any slack is taken out, or a slight stretching. This happens without any real shoulder or (upper) thorax rotation. I saw this early on in video and stated that initial rotation created some stretching. Later I learned about the X factor and kinetic link. I made another observation that hitters appeared to always be working forward.

The bat, back elbow, depending on style, will move prior to shoulder rotation (thorax rotation). While it makes up a distal segment their mass is less then the more proximal segment, and understanding that the scapula complex is the only way to really transfer force and energy from the body, any early movement in the arms/bat is a result or creating a better connection to the body.

This can seen and viewed as the back elbow starting before real shoulder or the upper thorax. The cue is then associated with the back elbow starting hip rotation or rotation, because of the connection between the pelvis, torso, scaps.

Since the body functions as a whole to complete the skill, you can look at the swing from the top down if you wish. Meaning all actions are to create and transfer energy and force into the bat, you focus on the goal. The goal for example isn't necessarily to create hip rotation. The focus on one part can create interfering with the body to create the goal, create efficient transfer into the bat. And in a way you can create disconnection through isolation on certain segments.

All hitters will say the need to get the front foot down before they swing. Heel plant is recognized and shown as when the kinetic link happens. And if they fly open to early or "really" start to swing before it create issues. The thorax is still closed or facing the plate. It doesn't matter if a hitter appears to have early lead arm extension, full connection happens at foot plant.

Inbewteen toe touch and foot plant, or the process of doing both, I identified in many hitters as when the hands change direction. There can be stretching, slack, or a greater connection taking place during this process. Although this topic of the hands changing direction which would indicate that perhaps the hands are moving backwards. It also involves that most hitters are always working forward. Thus, the position or what has been called tipping happens naturally in most hitters (because the barrel tip is often working forward).

more later,

 

[Hitter]

Ken,

As you know the sequence happens from a proximal to distal sequence. I tried to explain this to Mankin many times although he could not see or believe the arms/hand/bat could be affected without shoulder rotation taking place. Thus, he continued to adhere to his theory on pre launch and THT. Over the years he has changed many things, although I think he would still not believe the bat can't be affected without shoulder rotation to cause it to move.

The bat is of course being the distal segment. The arms and hands are also a distal segment.

The torso is a proximal segment to the arms/bat. The torso is more massive then the arms and bat. The upper torso or thorax does not move at the same rate as the lower trunk, during this time the arm and bat will move to some degree and in many cases prior to actual shoulder rotation (or thorax).

The proximal segment to the arms is also the scapula complex, in which makes up the really only way to transfer energy from the body into the arms.

In many cases the arms and scap complex isn't fully connected until any slack is taken out, or a slight stretching. This happens without any real shoulder or (upper) thorax rotation. I saw this early on in video and stated that initial rotation created some stretching. Later I learned about the X factor and kinetic link. I made another observation that hitters appeared to always be working forward.

The bat, back elbow, depending on style, will move prior to shoulder rotation (thorax rotation). While it makes up a distal segment their mass is less then the more proximal segment, and understanding that the scapula complex is the only way to really transfer force and energy from the body, any early movement in the arms/bat is a result or creating a better connection to the body.

This can seen and viewed as the back elbow starting before real shoulder or the upper thorax. The cue is then associated with the back elbow starting hip rotation or rotation, because of the connection between the pelvis, torso, scaps.

Since the body functions as a whole to complete the skill, you can look at the swing from the top down if you wish. Meaning all actions are to create and transfer energy and force into the bat, you focus on the goal. The goal for example isn't necessarily to create hip rotation. The focus on one part can create interfering with the body to create the goal, create efficient transfer into the bat. And in a way you can create disconnection through isolation on certain segments.

All hitters will say the need to get the front foot down before they swing. Heel plant is recognized and shown as when the kinetic link happens. And if they fly open to early or "really" start to swing before it create issues. The thorax is still closed or facing the plate. It doesn't matter if a hitter appears to have early lead arm extension, full connection happens at foot plant.

Inbewteen toe touch and foot plant, or the process of doing both, I identified in many hitters as when the hands change direction. There can be stretching, slack, or a greater connection taking place during this process. Although this topic of the hands changing direction which would indicate that perhaps the hands are moving backwards. It also involves that most hitters are always working forward. Thus, the position or what has been called tipping happens naturally in most hitters (because the barrel tip is often working forward).

more later,

This may help some of us....

Proximal and distal

The term proximal (Latin proximus; nearest; aka. "proxil") (not to be confused with paroxysmal) is used to describe where the appendage joins the body, and the term distal (Latin distare; to stand away from) is used for the point furthest from the point of attachment to the body. Since appendages often move independently of (and therefore change position with respect to) the main body, these separate directional terms are used when describing them.

Thorax

The portion of the chest composed of the spine, ribs and, breast bone.

Pelvis

pelvis, bony, basin-shaped structure that supports the organs of the lower abdomen. It receives the weight of the upper body and distributes it to the legs; it also forms the base for numerous muscle attachments. In the human pelvis there are two large hip bones, each consisting of three fused bones, the illium, ischium, and pubis. The hip bones form a ring around a central cavity. The fused terminal segments of the spine, known as the sacrum and coccyx, connect the hip bones at the back of the central cavity; a fibrous band connects them at the front. In women the pelvis is wider and has a larger capacity than in men, a condition that reflects the child-bearing function in women.

Rotation

The scapula is also capable of being rotated upward and downward around a reference point at the tip of the shoulder. This action occurs around an oblique angle passing through the sternoclavicular joint and the scapula bone just below the shoulder joint.
The scapula can be rotated upward around this axis, allowing a full upward swing (abduction) of the upper limb.
Or it can be rotated downward, pushing the inferior angle of the scapula close to the midline of the body.
In anatomy, the scapula, omo (Medical Latin), or shoulder blade, is the bone that connects the humerus (arm bone) with the clavicle (collar bone).
The scapula forms the posterior (back) located part of the shoulder girdle. In humans, it is a flat bone, roughly triangular in shape, placed on a posterolateral aspect of the thoracic cage.
In human anatomy, the muscles of the hip joint are those muscles that cause movement in the hip. Most modern anatomists define 17 of these muscles, although some additional muscles may sometimes be considered. These are often divided into four groups according to their orientation around the hip joint: the gluteal group, the lateral rotator group, the adductor group, and the iliopsoas group.

• The Kinetic Chain
– Kinetic means force(s).
– Chain refers to a system that is linked together or connected.
– All components work together to manipulate human motion.
– If one component of the kinetic chain is not working properly, it will affect the others and ultimately affect the movement.

Noun: X factor
1. (informal) an unknown or hard-to-define but important special property

 

[Towson 15]

X factor refers to the angle running through the hips crossing the angle running through the shoulders.Since the hips start first,and have opened relatively speaking prior to the shoulders turning,that is what is known as the X factor.Manny ,for eample sets up in an offset so that his hips are pointing towards the pitcher and his shoulders are pointed more toward where the second baseman plays.The term actually comes from golf and has been around for a while.

 

[PEPPERS]

This is a bit off topic but being Howard brought it up in his post that hands too far ahead ground balls elbow too far ahead pop ups.

This year my DD is hitting everything line drives last week 7 for 8 three doubles one head high off the fence, one knee high that lands in the grass between 2nd base and 2nd baseman. The home runs have not been coming like she is used to hitting, she is not getting the ball up. I don't think of this being a problem, but to her it is. Any suggestions on getting a little lift on the ball, but I'm almost afraid to change any thing because she is doing so well. I told her with line drives the HR will come, but she's not buying it.

 

[Hitter]

This is a bit off topic but being Howard brought it up in his post that hands too far ahead ground balls elbow too far ahead pop ups.

This year my DD is hitting everything line drives last week 7 for 8 three doubles one head high off the fence, one knee high that lands in the grass between 2nd base and 2nd baseman. The home runs have not been coming like she is used to hitting, she is not getting the ball up. I don't think of this being a problem, but to her it is. Any suggestions on getting a little lift on the ball, but I'm almost afraid to change any thing because she is doing so well. I told her with line drives the HR will come, but she's not buying it.

PEPPERS why are you blaming me? LOL!

Try this for me please! Take her to a field and place a tee 2 to 3 inches forward of home plate and centered so the ball should go up the middle if she measures off from the back corner of home plate.

Hit ten balls and see where the balls land and how far the balls were hit.

Now explain to her how we think the elbow works in my world and that does not mean it agrees with anyone elses opinion of how it works.

We explain we want the elbows to work together as a unit and stay connected however as the back elbow lowers, how do you explain what the lead arm elbow does or feels like.

This is where the rope comes into teaching the feel of getting to connection and bat lag.

The lead elbow is explained as making a good first move and that is by moving forward and up a ramp verses just forward ( ground balls) or up (probably high fly balls or over the back stop foul balls) .

We have them take the top hand and turn it palm down and place our lead elbow on top of the back of the top hand and rest it there. We are wanting to show them the motion of the lead elbow. We say were the elbow was the hand will now be and they move the lead elbow forward and do not not loose contact with the back of the hand the elbow was resting on and keep moving it forward while the forearm will stay in contact and finally the lead hand will be where the elbow was. We point out the elbow is now at about the top of the shoulder and during the swing the tilt and turn of the shoulders will be adjusting.

The lead elbow will be above the plane of the pitch and the hands will be above the ball and the bat head will be below the hands or elbow, hands and bat head a slight angle depending on the pitch.

After that let her pull on a rope and stage her at bat lag so she can feel it and make sure the lead elbow is up a little so you create the angle of lead elbow above the ball, hands above the ball and below the elbow and bat head below the hands.

Put a visual in her mind of the back hand being stacked over the elbow as the lead elbow is moving forward and up please.

I would like some feed back from you after you try it.

Thanks Howard

 

[Hitter]

X factor refers to the angle running through the hips crossing the angle running through the shoulders.Since the hips start first,and have opened relatively speaking prior to the shoulders turning,that is what is known as the X factor.Manny ,for eample sets up in an offset so that his hips are pointing towards the pitcher and his shoulders are pointed more toward where the second baseman plays.The term actually comes from golf and has been around for a while.

From the net...."We employ a simplified human body model of fourteen joints and four face landmarks: two feet, two knees, two hips (about which the upper-legs rotate), pelvis, upper-neck (about which the head rotates), two shoulders, two elbows, two hands, forehead, nose, chin and (right or left) ear. The hip joints constitute a rigid body. Choosing the pelvis as the origin, we can define the X axis as the line passing through the pelvis and the two hips. The line joining the base of the neck with the pelvis can be taken as the positive Y axis.
The Z axis points in the forward direction. We call the XY plane the torso plane. We scale the coordinate system such that the head-to-chin distance is unity. With respect to the input and output, the problem we seek to solve in this paper is similar to those addressed previously (e.g. [13], [1]): Given an image with the location in the image of the body landmarks and the relative body lengths, recover their bodycentric coordinates. "

"We make use of two assumptions:"

1. "We use the isometry approximation where all subjects are assumed to have the same body part lengths when scaled. The allometry approximation [16] where the proportions are dependent on body size is considered to be better because the relative proportions depend upon body size: for instance, children have a proportionally larger head than adults. Our algorithm, however, is invariant to full-body 3D projective transformations."

2." The torso twist is small such that the shoulders take on fixed coordinates in the body-centered coordinate system.Except for the case where the subject twists the shoulder-line relative to the hip-line by a large angle, this assumption is usually applicable. Further, since our algorithm relies on human input, it is easy to tell if this assumption is violated."