Back elbow initiates the swing?

[Shawn]

Hitter,

I'm not sure if your suggesting less head movement equals better contact or average. There are many old timers who didn't have the instructions on how to hit or hitting coaches. They learned to do things that no one can do these days, or as much as they did in the past. I have around 60 clips of Hank Aaron hitting for example and his head might move in every clip.

Ichiro's head moves more then most these days and in fastpitch slappers not only move the head, they also perform foot work while doing it. Just watched a college team on TV the other day where the slapper hit the ball off the wall on a fly twice (shows you how little it takes to actually hit a ball 190ft).

There was an old video with some poor biomechinical information where they basically said if the head moved you could not hit or your weight would get to the front side to early. It made me laugh after seeing it about 10 years apart from the first time. The video was in such bad shape it ruined one of my VCR heads.

I'll post more of the video tomorrow.

Shawn

 

[Daddy O]

YouTube - Elbow to Elbow Drill.MPG

I guess I would say I teach it.



Dana

When you tell her to set it up and she puts her left hand on top, what is that supposed to simulate or reenforce? Just asking cause I don't neccesarily see this as back elbow initiates the swing. I see it as Howards "lead elbow makes good forward move and elbows working as a unit".
Looks like a good drill to teach it.
Thanks.

 

[Hitter]

Hitter,

I'm not sure if your suggesting less head movement equals better contact or average. There are many old timers who didn't have the instructions on how to hit or hitting coaches. They learned to do things that no one can do these days, or as much as they did in the past. I have around 60 clips of Hank Aaron hitting for example and his head might move in every clip.

Ichiro's head moves more then most these days and in fastpitch slappers not only move the head, they also perform foot work while doing it. Just watched a college team on TV the other day where the slapper hit the ball off the wall on a fly twice (shows you how little it takes to actually hit a ball 190ft).

There was an old video with some poor biomechinical information where they basically said if the head moved you could not hit or your weight would get to the front side to early. It made me laugh after seeing it about 10 years apart from the first time. The video was in such bad shape it ruined one of my VCR heads.

I'll post more of the video tomorrow.

Shawn

Shawn

Eye sight plays a big factor, so what affects eye sight in my opinion would be important. I had posted an article that gives vision a 47% factor in the hitting process and if one were to make an improvement, I would consider what ever affects my seeing the ball to be important.

Look at the sport and consider how you track the ball, such as tennis, baseball or even golf. Oh! Yes golf! Tiger can not hit a ball off the tee when some clicks a camera and AP sends it into the seats with flash bulbs, while standing in the shadows and 50,000 drunk fans cheering him on.

I think how you track the ball for the sport is important and can be done differently depending on your athleticism.

Most will say up to touch is style verses mechanics however I feel that is where the vision portion gets lost as the stance they use open, closed or parallel makes a big difference to be able to get a good two eyed look.

During the load are we turning in the shoulders so far as to move one eye further back. This would be like taking a pair of binoculars away from the right eye and you could not possibly see the ball as well. They put a degree of do not roll the shoulder in more than 12 degrees, so I had one of my students dads load it into an ergonomics program and it calculated 3.65 inches of movement.

Look at the individual's eyes and are the eyes set in front of the socket, back in the socket, distance from eye to eye and that may play a factor in it also.

Then when we stride are we landing hard of soft? How far is the front leg turning in the hip socket? We may say the front foot lands at 45 degrees however I ca sit in a chair and articulate my ankle to some extent however the knee cap is more of a directional point than the foot and it being flexed or rigid has an affect on my vision in my opinion.

Think when you are running, landing flat footed and your eyes are moving in the socket and jarring to some extent. A wide receiver runs down the field and cuts at a specified point avoids the defender and still must see the ball to catch it through a face mask.

So in my opinion if we land on the inside edge of our foot (eversion) and allow our weight to shift on a flexed knee we are keeping our head somewhat steady giving us a better opportunity to see the ball in my opinion.

Many of the top hitters have great eye sight of 20/ 10 or better and that helps and possibly they can do some extraordinary things and still be able to hit the ball.

Can your 9 to 12 year old daughter do it?

To demonstrate we are stronger with our head down as when tracking the ball, we have the hitter keep both elbows in at their rib cage area and put their palms together. Then we tilt their chin up slightly just above the horizon and ask the hitter not to allow us to push their hands down and to try and resist us. They will not be able to do it!

Then repeat and tilt their chin down just a little as if tracking the ball and you will not be able to move their hands downward. When the chin is just below the horizon you engage the intrinsic muscle group located on either side of the spine. Reach around behind you and press your thumbs by the spine and you can feel the muscles bugle out when the head is down. verses up.

To promote this while doing tee work I have glued a white rag inside the tube of the tee so after they hit a ball I want to see their eyes and head looking at where the ball was.

I had read a book several years ago by Terry Bahill, Keep Your Eye On The Ball.

Of interest were the others in ability to track the ball like the pro. They give the direction of tracking the ball in degrees from the fovea of the eye. To gain an understanding of this he suggested using a 12-inch ruler and holding it in front of you at arm’s length. Look at the left end of the ruler and the right end is about 34 degrees off the fovea. While looking at the left end you won’t be able to read the numbers on the right side. Because the two other people were using just their eyes or just their head, they did not track it as well as the pro. Brian tracked the ball using head and eye movements, keeping his eye on the ball longer than the other persons did. He did not track the ball to the point of bat and ball collision.

I made a tool like the ruler to explain how the hitter may or may not be tracking the ball correctly. I used a wooden bat handle and put a piece of drill rod in it. I took a ball and put numbers 1 through 6 on it and drilled a hole in it and threaded the other end of the drill rod and put a nut on it so the ball would not slide off. The handle has an area where the drill rod meets and it is painted red.

They hold the bat handle in their hand away from them at arms length looking at the red area. I ask if they can read the number on the ball to their left. Then I ask them to keep their nose/head pointed at the red. They can feel the strain of their eyes while trying this.

Now they look towards the ball with only their eyes and then I reverse it keeping their eyes on the red and their nose/head pointing at the ball. They can feel the strain it causes looking out of the corner of the eye socket versus moving their head so they are not straining their eyes. Now I ask them to look at the ball with their eyes and head.

As I move the ball towards the handle they track it by using smooth-pursuit eye head movements. When they are hitting under/over the ball in soft toss, their head is usually pulling out as a result of the shoulder or front side opening and after explaining the ball on the stick they try and keep the head and eyes working together better. Yes, some of it is hitting technique/style but let’s not get into.

KYEOTB page 177; “He was able to keep his position error below 2 degrees until the ball was within 5.5 ft. from the plate, at which point he began to fall behind. When the ball was 2 ft. in front of the plate the image of the ball was already 16 degrees off his fovea and was going 1,100 degrees per second. Thus, he was no longer tracking the ball.”

Again he did not track the ball to the point where he could see the ball and bat collide because it is not possible.

They didn’t say what kind of stance he was using or his mechanics but they went on to say it was repeatable.

“He also had better-eye coordination, as shown in the region where he was giving his head a head start. In addition, he was better at suppressing the vestibulo-ocular reflex and making his head and eyes move in the same direction. This allowed him to track the ball with equal-sized head and eye movements, whereas the other subjects usually tracked with either head or eye movements.”

“Together these three superiorities allowed the professional athlete to track the ball to 5.5 ft. in front of the plate compared to our students who fell behind at the 9 ft. mark.”

I use a strobe light that is mounted directly over the hitters head and darken my hitting area and soft toss balls.

I have worked Crystl off this many times and she picked up on it quickly as she has 20/8 and 20/9 vision in the right and left eye. It would be interesting to know what the .300 average hitters vision is verses the .266 hitters.

So when Laura Berg was here I let her try it and and I told her she would probably not hit a ball the way she normally tracks the ball with is the traditional head eye movement. I frustrated her as she missed 28 balls in a row and you could see it happening in slow motion and the bat was just over the ball no more than an inch. We were all laughing at her and she put her hands on her hip and said I am a pro and this can not be happening!

I explained to look forward at the red light and then give her head, a head start by moving her nose in the direction of my finger and then as I released the ball track it with her eyes and she hit 10 in a row in the center of the ball into the target area of the net. We turned the lights back on and hit some more and she picked up on it as she is a pro!

Several of my kids parents are in law enforcement and they pointed out to look at our troops looking down the barrel of a gun while walking and moving and they do not turn the head and then the gun. They turn the gun with the head to eliminate the blur so the gun is pointed at exactly what they intend to shoot. They are not tracking a moving object like a ball and if they hear a sound they turn the gun with the head and eyes. Try it yourself by looking straight ahead, then turning your head quickly and it should be a blur. Now repeat and give your head a head start and your eyes will catch up and as Dr. Bill Harrison says you slow the game down.

I hope I answered your questions.

Thanks Howard

 

[Hitter]

When you tell her to set it up and she puts her left hand on top, what is that supposed to simulate or reenforce? Just asking cause I don't neccesarily see this as back elbow initiates the swing. I see it as Howards "lead elbow makes good forward move and elbows working as a unit".
Looks like a good drill to teach it.
Thanks.

Daddy O

This is exactly where I feel this whole thing on hand path goes South as most can not get the younger ones to understand it or feel what it is we are wanting them to do.

I had 4 girls here from the Cincy Static Saturday and they all had similar issues so I figured it had to be the way it was explained to them by their coaches. NO big deal so I called the coach and suggested to look at the other girls when they had practice Sunday and it was fixed. Just a blip no big deal!

I started explaining what leverage is and I ask the girls if I could lift them with one hand? No way coach I weigh X number of pounds!

I get a 2 x 4 and a block of wood and have them stand on it and up they go! Now I point out the bat laying on the floor and say what is that? They give that look and say it is a bat coach!

I point to the 2 x 4 and say I explained this was a lever so why is the bat not like a lever and how we grip the bat is how we can apply leverage when we hit the ball!

Then I show them how to hit the nail simulator vertically and then another I have mounted horizontally using a hammer and explain how the grip in the top hand is different that he bottom hand and let them feel the difference in the horizontal position like we do for hitting at palm up and palm down.

Then we use a rope or a WhipHit and I let them feel the bat lag position and releasing of the wrist at point of contact. Then we show them how they grip the bat will affect the leverage they apply to the ball. Most of them hold the bat in the back of the top hand and the bat can be easily moved rearward and they see it and feel it. Then we say hold the bat like the hammer and they feel it. Then we do it head up verses head down and they feel stronger with the head down as when tracking the ball.

We let them hit a few balls and if the balls are not in the target area we go into more detail about how the elbows work individually and then as a unit.

By explaining how the back elbow begins to lower and then what the lead elbow does by making a good first move and you have a light bulb moment!

Because we have a target area they know if they are above the red line the back elbow is ahead of the hand, if it is below the blue line the hands are ahead of the elbow and they are pushing the bat.

If the ball is left of center they are not taking the knob far enough forward before releasing the barrel to the ball or the shoulders are not turning enough.

Based on the hitter we do face the fire or start them on the matrix drill.

Thanks Howard

 

[Wellphyt]

aim -

I think more important than sleepy or awake is how the wrists need to work.

Charley Lau Jr focusses on fixing 2 primary flaws in the swing, the one most related to this discussion is eliminating/preventing "top hand dominance" (the other big flaw is preventing "swinging while striding" which is a differnt subject).

Top hand dominance is the natural tendency to want to load up and push with the back (usually dominant) arm. The Lau system tries to fix this more passively than the Mankin system by emphasizing what the top hand back arm should NOT do as opposed to the more active Mankin approach of learning positively how to apply THT.

Lau drills include one armed drills, lead arm emphasis, pulling knob with lead arm not shoulder and open top hand drills for example.

Another important point stressed by Nyman more than most is the "backward chaining" which organizes drill work by starting with the end of the motion and then adding earlier pieces of the motion as you progress. This teaches getting the later parts of the motion right based on the idea that the closer a part of the motion is to impact (release in case of throwing) the more important it is to get it right.

This would suggest that getting wrist action right is crucial which is what is addressed in "hammer" drills.

Williams' descriptions include power vs tackhammer type action as well as hitting with top hand wrist unbroken or at leas no wrist roll before contact.

rather than have a sleepy hand and a more active one, I think in hitting you need to focus on 2 active hands which requires careful attention to grip and the necessary wrist action for torquing the handle early.

Mankin is best at describing a nonbinding grip which fits with both a wide angle between the forearms early (mechanically advantageous at applying early torque) and a narrowing angle approaching contact. This is typicall accomplished either by a relaxed top hand grip permitting some slippage or a non door knocker lined up grip so there can be a wider forearm angle early.

Next, you must get the wrist action right which is best described in golf as a vertical cocking/uncocking (ADduction/ABduction) of the lead/bottom wrist and a "setting" (dorsiflexing and staying dorsiflexed in plane of action "horizontal"/at 90 degrees from kinesiological motion of top hand wrist) of the top hand wrist which stays "set" until contact.

Here are a couple of golf demos which illustrate these principles including keeping a horizontally flat left wrist (lead wrist can be flat or bowed/arched, but never break down by cupping/dorsiflexing) that cocks and uncocks (hammers) in a vertical plane and a bent (dorsiflexed) lead/bottom wrist that stays bent at contact.

This same dorsiflexion of the top hand wrist, then keeping it set like this as you turn the corner is necessary for the application of torque by rolling (supination) of the back forearm (active shoulder tilt and forearm twist actions are discouraged in golf but essential in the HLBB swing).

So rather than sleepy vs awake or one arm/hand passive, I woud recommend working toward both hands/arms being active/working together in the right way which requires teaching the details of grip and wrist action to permite the forearms etc from working right.

"hammering" is a great drill for vertical lead wrist cocking/uncocking.

Not good for top hand action where getting top hand wrist set (Williams -"cocked") and keeping it cocked until contact is necessary.


Golf examples of botom wrist hammer and address vs impact wrist positions:


YouTube - Left Wrist Uncock Drill by Lynn Blake

YouTube - Lynn Blake Golf at The Barclays 2008 - Day 2

Hey Tom,

My comment about girls having sleepy wrist was not meant to suggest that they need to turn or twist the wrist or anything along those longs. It was meant to convey my observation that many girls I work with have WEAK or LOOSE wrist. It's hard to explain but many girls just don't have the correct mental image of how the hinge angles in the wrist need to be maintained when torque is applied to the handle to get the bat started. Their wrist can get kind of floppy resulting in the barrel passing through all kinds of interesting positions, and in some cases getting left behind.

I have found an added focus on the top hand as being the power source early in the swing helps the girls to tighten up the wrist and lesson the WEAK wrist tendency I see.

Here is a quote from Epstein that I saved from his old message board that might help better explain my thought process:

In the correct rotational swing, the top hand is your “power” source, while the lead arm (bottom hand) is your swing “guide.”
In other words, slightly pushing with the power arm gets your swing going, then your lead arm “takes over”
and guides (begins to match) your bat plane to the plane of the pitch. It’s really much easier doing it, then explaining it.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

YouTube - Elbow to Elbow Drill.MPG

I guess I would say I teach it.



Dana

IMO, this is not good.

Stacked Elbow at bat lag

 

[ifubuildit]

Five

Yeah I know. I read the thread. Made a choice to stay out of that one. We will agree to disagree. Not like we have not in the past. We have also agreed on some things too.

Dana.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

IUBI ... yes, we have agreed on some things ... if you could post a video clip of a game swing that passes through this position then we might agree on this as well ... but search as I might, through hundreds and hundreds of swings, I can't come across a game swing of a perfectly vertical forearm at 'bat lag'. Again ... if you do come across supporting game clips then I'd greatly appreciate seeing them.

 

[Wellphyt]

YouTube - Elbow to Elbow Drill.MPG

I guess I would say I teach it.



Dana

Thanks for posting this clip as it helps to clarify what Hitter teaches regarding the arms. Could you explain the purpose of this drill? IOW, if I'm the girl in the clip doing this drill, and you were to ask me why I'm doing this drill, what would I say?

 

[Hitter]

Wellphyt

I will try it again....We teach a progression to get the kids to understand what it is we are teaching.

I laugh personally when I hear some of the terms used to explain hitting to parents and coaches on this site and others as it appears we want to sound smarter than the next person.

I f all of us were that smart MLB players averages would be greater than .266 on average. So far with all the video of the MLB elite swing patterns, Slaught , Epstein, Lau Jr., Englishby and who ever else you choose has not raised the average over .270 in several years!

What are we missing? I will say however Slaughts methods worked well enough for the Tigers and then when he left they scrapped everything and they have not hit well since in my opinion.
I know over the winter they met to try and figure out what has to change to get them back on track, so I guess they will consult with members of this and other boards for advice as we have all the answers and video to prove it!

A study indicated about 47 % of swing mechanics can be attributed to vision.

What is the next major issue of concern? Probably hand path in my opinion.

I have went through great lengths to try and understand it and as close as I have come to being able to teach it quicker, so the kids understand the concept faster, is to have them see it while performing it in front of a mirror, by bringing the back elbow down and opening the shoulders as they do it, so the hand and elbow are stacked!

This is also why I designed the helicopter bat and WhipHit.

The grip we use allows more control of the bat, as it is in the top hand fingers not the back of the hand. In my opinion this is where I see the hand path go bad as they turn the proverbial corner.

Once they understand the concept of what the back elbow is doing, we then explain the lead elbow. As it makes a good first move while the back elbow is lowering it moves forward and up as if going up a ramp.

At and during the connection phase the action of the elbow lowering is new for most kids which is why we do it our way and not what some feel are conventional methods to teach and who cares if it works for you or someone else that has a paradigm of how you think it works? It is the kids that matter not other hitting instructors on a consensus agreement from board members.

The big zone is the first time they see what the hands are doing and the hands are inside the path of the ball. Is it perfect? Who cares! Did the kid get it? Yes!

They stand in front of a mirror and I stand behind them so they can see the tilt and turn they have accomplished and that their lead elbow is at or near shoulder level , hands are below the elbow and bat head is below the hands and is at an angle depending on the height of the pitch. I am holding a ball and they see it in the mirror, and I work the ball up from below the knee, knees, mid thigh, waist and just below the elbows so they can see the bat angle changing.

This is why we do the matrix drill in slow motion. It is actually difficult to do with out momentum. As they do the drill they will even say this is hard to do without swinging faster and we point out it is the lack of momentum that is missing and just keep working the elbows and try to be more deliberate with the hand stacked over the elbow SO THEY BREAK THE CYCLE OF PUSHING THE BAT!When they pick up the pace and start to swing a little faster they adjust and they hit the target area on the net. They know if the are pushing or the back elbow is ahead of the hands, as they know where the ball is going and they understand what they must do to correct it.

The knob of the bat is marked so they can see the knob is leading and is at bat lag and the bat has two colors dividing it and that is where the sweet spot is and they learn how to control the bat by understanding where the ball is in relationship to the balls depth in box. We focus on releasing the barrel to the ball with the wrist. I even have balls cut off so they understand we never want to hit the outer portion of the ball!

The hammer drill gets them to feel the wrist unhinging vertically and then horizontally with each hand individually then combined with a larger hammer and the elbow is stacked and they strike the nail simulator horizontally with each hand to get the feeling. Why? SO WE BREAK THE CYCLE OF NOT PUSHING THE BAT. They are told and shown examples of leverage, how it works and the elbow and wrist are hinges and the forearm is a lever.

If the girl ask me the question I would say we want you to feel the elbow coming down verses pushing. What most kids are taught is pushing anyway.

The swivel drill I have seen, I would never use it however maybe the instructor finds some value in it. If you find no value in it do not use it would be my suggestion to anyone.

Hope this helps.

Howard