13yo Maddie

tjintx · Oct 5, 2017

Consider this image as it would pertain to a left handed hitter...

1 scap being retracted while the other is being protracted. Space is created for the barrel to work.
While the rear scap focus for some is to pinch, clamp, retract, or whatever you want to call it, there is no balance from an equal or opposite action in the front scap. Maybe they think the hitter will just FIO themselves, and maybe some will. there is plenty of room for experimenting with tensions and direction of scapular movement.
I guess a good question would be, If you clamp the rear scap to the spine, do you also clamp the front scap to the spine? If the answer is no then an explanation is needed, if they say it doesn't matter what you do with the front scap then I would say their teaching or understanding is lacking. There is room for improvement.
The front scap supports the front arm, so how it moves within the sequence is important because the front arm needs to set barrel plane uninhibited while the lower body directs the macro or mass direction.

FP26 · Oct 6, 2017

tjintx said:
Consider this image as it would pertain to a left handed hitter...
View attachment 12277
1 scap being retracted while the other is being protracted. Space is created for the barrel to work.
While the rear scap focus for some is to pinch, clamp, retract, or whatever you want to call it, there is no balance from an equal or opposite action in the front scap. Maybe they think the hitter will just FIO themselves, and maybe some will. there is plenty of room for experimenting with tensions and direction of scapular movement.
I guess a good question would be, If you clamp the rear scap to the spine, do you also clamp the front scap to the spine? If the answer is no then an explanation is needed, if they say it doesn't matter what you do with the front scap then I would say their teaching or understanding is lacking. There is room for improvement.
The front scap supports the front arm, so how it moves within the sequence is important because the front arm needs to set barrel plane uninhibited while the lower body directs the macro or mass direction.

Thanks TJ. I will add that the movements also include a 'range of motion'. Just because a body part is moving, doesn't mean it necessarily needs to utilize it's complete range of motion. I agree with your assertion that the front arm assists to set the barrel plane, and it is my belief that the front scap is involved in that function.

FiveFrameSwing · Oct 6, 2017

It is important that the front shoulder NOT retract during this portion of the swing.

Eric F · Oct 6, 2017

This is great! Good, detailed discussion without insults, egos, or other ridiculousness...in a HITTING forum!! Who would'a thunk it was possible??!!

Keep it going, guys. Front shoulder/scap action isn't something I've really put much thought into.

FP26 · Oct 6, 2017

FiveFrameSwing said:
It is important that the front shoulder NOT retract during this portion of the swing.

Very well. Let's examine this a bit closer. During the two frames of this gif, Agon's front arm is getting longer. The angle at the front elbow is changing. What do you call this movement? and is there any importance in this to you? The hands are staying at relatively the same spot in space. At least there appears to be less movement of the hands as compared to the angle of the front elbow.

FiveFrameSwing · Oct 6, 2017

FP26 said:
Very well. Let's examine this a bit closer. During the two frames of this gif, Agon's front arm is getting longer. The angle at the front elbow is changing. What do you call this movement? and is there any importance in this to you? The hands are staying at relatively the same spot in space. At least there appears to be less movement of the hands as compared to the angle of the front elbow.

Is this important? Yes!

There is no 'retraction' in the lead shoulder taking place during this portion of the swing. In fact, you are working hard to prevent that during this portion of the swing.

The rear shoulder is lowering, and the front shoulder is going 'up' and 'forward' .... all compliments of the core actions in play. The 'resulting' shoulder movement taking place "pulls" on the barrel.

Notice that the lead-hip is further ahead rotationally than is the lead-shoulder. That is important. You want this 'pull' taking place with the front-hip ahead. Then as you throw ... or if you prefer, once the lateral-tilt is essentially complete, ... the front-shoulder will catch up to the front-hip and surpass it ... that acceleration of the front-shoulder, relative to the front-hip, will provide a resulting accelerated pull ... and you want that as well.

If you retracted the front-shoulder as you mentioned earlier, you would retard the resulting accelerated pulling.

FP26 · Oct 6, 2017

FiveFrameSwing said:
Is this important? Yes!

There is no 'retraction' in the lead shoulder taking place during this portion of the swing. In fact, you are working hard to prevent that during this portion of the swing.

The rear shoulder is lowering, and the front shoulder is going 'up' and 'forward' .... all compliments of the core actions in play. The 'resulting' shoulder movement taking place "pulls" on the barrel.

Notice that the lead-hip is further ahead rotationally than is the lead-shoulder. That is important. You want this 'pull' taking place with the front-hip ahead. Then as you throw ... or if you prefer, once the lateral-tilt is essentially complete, ... the front-shoulder will catch up to the front-hip and surpass it ... that acceleration of the front-shoulder, relative to the front-hip, will provide a resulting accelerated pull ... and you want that as well.

If you retracted the front-shoulder as you mentioned earlier, you would retard the resulting accelerated pulling.

Good stuff FFS. You are stating that the front shoulder is going 'up' and 'forward'. Is the shoulder/scap causing any of that movement, or is it simply a result of the rear shoulder lowering? i.e. lateral tilt.

FiveFrameSwing · Oct 6, 2017

FP26 said:
Good stuff FFS. You are stating that the front shoulder is going 'up' and 'forward'. Is the shoulder/scap causing any of that movement, or is it simply a result of the rear shoulder lowering? i.e. lateral tilt.

I don't think of my front-scap. However, between your comment of 'lead-shoulder retraction', and Tjintx's comment on 'lead-shoulder protraction', I would say TJ is a lot closer.

Next time you get to the cages/field, play with the 'lateral tilt' ... make it aggressive ... really use your core. Feel the lead-shoulder becoming pulled 'up' as a result. Work your core to make that pull up happen harder and faster ... and take note of the resulting centripetal force and the faster barrel movement.

Edited to add:
If it helps, think of the 'lateral tilt' as the 'Go!'.

Eric F · Oct 6, 2017

FP26 said:
Good stuff FFS. You are stating that the front shoulder is going 'up' and 'forward'. Is the shoulder/scap causing any of that movement, or is it simply a result of the rear shoulder lowering? i.e. lateral tilt.

It seems to me (as I move my own body) that it's a response to the action of the core. The way FFS describes it aligns with what I'm feeling.

FiveFrameSwing · Oct 6, 2017

EricF is spot on. The front shoulder action is in response to the core. Very important you don't try to start the barrel by directly using the shoulders .... something I see a lot of JV and young players do. They have a sense that the lead-shoulder pulls ... and they are actually somewhat correct ... just that they go after this directly rather than indirectly.

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